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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#91

Post by supernova87a »

satyrnein wrote: post #64
supernova87a wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well to be specific, buying the iPhone comes with access to apps through the the App Store, not any software that you like. That's clear to almost everyone I would think. And it comes without any statement/guarantee about how Apple charges the developers or the agreements there. Most people have no idea, and don't care. Some apps choose to make their apps free, others choose to charge fees. Some want to have their in…

I bought a Roku recently, figuring as a more popular platform than my previous Android TV box that I would get all the popular apps. I was surprised to later learn that I wasn't getting an HBO Max app seemingly because Roku and HBO hadn't agreed on commercial terms (that I hadn't realized even existed). I didn't care, but it ended up affecting me. The Apple/Epic fought reminds me of when sometimes content owners and…

Yes, it is totally like that. It's like MLB and ESPN, or Comcast and local channels, record labels and musicians, or any other favorite platform or product where co-sellers of something have to split up the shares of revenue and costs.

Companies on one side of it will always try to frame it as a principled fight over consumer access, etc. etc. And the other company will frame it as a cost of doing business / business model. But it always boils down to dissatisfaction about the prices they're paying or receiving.

Don't buy into the claimed principles. They're just dressing on the argument that is always about the $. Both sides.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#93

Post by acomjean »

beaner wrote: post #50
Traster wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

>They seem not quite the same to me

I agree. Operating systems are not App Stores.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#94

Post by ksk »

rektide wrote: post #60
loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Apple on the other hand gets plenty of value from Epic. For example, 10 years ago, when Epic made the Citadel demo for Apple to show their smartphones could run games. Ground breaking R&D work, gratis for Apple, & legitimizing their devices. https://www.theverge.com/21405805/epic-citadel-2010-annivers... We'll see how much more bad blood Apple can make with developers before people start noticing & caring about the s…

I think this kind of behavior is wide-spread - Climbing a ladder and then kicking it down once you're on the top because you don't need it anymore. Twitter is the famous example of doing that where they grew their network on the backs of third party clients, and then rate-limited them out of existence.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#95

Post by gpm »

drivingmenuts wrote: post #88
supernova87a wrote: post #34

Well, it certainly seems clear from a facts point of view at least, that Epic was engineering the plan to test Apple. They prepared a release that contained the ability to bypass the payment mechanism. Then they did that, and told Apple that was what they were doing. And then launched a big marketing campaign to rally support for it. At least in facts, this wasn't a sudden action by Apple to crush an unsuspecting lit…

Epic’s big mistake was assuming that enough consumers care. Certainly Fortnite is popular, but it’s not popular with a large enough percentage of the entire iOS market to support that kind of action.

This was never going to be won through public opinion, Epic's pretty clear goal from the start was to win this in court.

I can't imagine how big a backlash there would have to be for Apple to give up on it's 30% cut voluntarily, and I don't imagine that Epic thought there was any chance of this happening.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#96

Post by hinkley »

loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

I wonder what the conversations look like inside of Epic, because it seems to me that trying to make everything in Fortnight feel the same on iOS as it does on PC or console is a huge investment for not the sorts of returns they're looking for.

If the iOS version was just an appetizer, then you wouldn't be pushing the volume of DLC that make the Apple tax so apparently onerous for them. If you switch to desktop then your purchases are pure profit for them. If not they still make a few bucks.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#97

Post by loktarogar »

m3kw9 wrote: post #86
loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

The Apple platform is more than just the AppStore.

But it's no more value than they get from googles platform, or more importantly their own platform. It's "just another platform" to EPIC.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#98

Post by gpm »

seanalltogether wrote: post #55

If apple is countersuing for lost revenue due to fortnites in app payment system, does this mean apple will need justify the value of their 30% cut, and in turn potentially have a judge declare its too much?

No?

I mean, Epic will be able to argue that it was illegal, they were able to argue that anyways. The exact value for the cut isn't really a legal issue though, if the cut is legal in the first place then the existing contract will almost certainly hold and it will be 30%.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#99

Post by simonh »

swivelmaster wrote: post #29
jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

What is boggling my mind about this is that Apple CLEARLY has a case because Epic violated the TOS, but they're stretching waaaaaay out there with the dramatic language and seeking punitive damages. (Especially since... come on, punitive damages for something that was live for less than 24 hours?)

This is simply par for the course business as usual. Apple can’t let Epic simply deny them revenue, and they also can’t let them do so knowingly and deliberately without punishment. It would be amazing and shocking if they didn’t do this, it’s simply, a logical consequence of their legal position.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#100

Post by Traster »

beaner wrote: post #50
Traster wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

They seem not quite the same to me. A game built with Unreal Engine is essentially powered by it and would not exist otherwise. A game deployed to an iPhone could theoretically be acquired through an alternative app store or just direct download. Apple's app store provides no utility to developers other than being the forced walled monopoly that all developers must list through. The proper analogy to Epic charging fo…

It's $100 because there's no other distribution method. If tomorrow you could use Apple's libraries and distribute the App by yourself, the cost of the Libraries wouldn't be $100. It'd be $100 and 30% of your revenue. It's not meaningful to draw out 1 bill when we all know that what's important is the total cost.
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