Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#61

Post by BoorishBears » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

Traster wrote: post #30

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools. This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for…

> And Epic doesn't even provide quality control, a discovery mechanism, or payment processing.

You're comparing Epic's dev tools to XCode.. but then you're also comparing them to the App Store later in your comment?

Epic has an equivalent of the App Store that does the things you listed: https://www.epicgames.com/store/en-US/about

(saying either does QC is a little disingenuous imo. Apple does "QC" insofar to make sure you're not trying to submit a flaming hunk of garbage, they're not there to be your QC. Epic does the same.)

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#62

Post by supernova87a » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #9

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

Such a weird argument too, as if there was a different service Epic could use to reach > 50% of the US mobile market.

But what is the market? That's a really important question.

If the market is video games in general, Apple is but a tiny sliver of control of that market.

If the market is iOS devices, yes of course Apple controls 100% of that.

Where does the line get drawn? How many outlets does Epic have to sell what it develops? I think that's for the FTC/SEC to determine.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#63

Post by kbenson » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

strictnein wrote: post #9

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

Such a weird argument too, as if there was a different service Epic could use to reach > 50% of the US mobile market.

If Epic was able to install their own app as a store (what they actually want), they would have at least a few tens of millions of users to start with (there's 116 million iOS Fortnite players).

Epic's in the fairly unique position of having a "killer app" that a large portion of the iOS user base would want to install to get the ball rolling on a competing store. Given their rates a much better than Apple's, I imagine a lot of game studios would want to distribute through them, and they could offer cheaper prices and still make more profit, so people would be incentivized to install and use the competing store.

You know, actual competition.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#64

Post by satyrnein » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

supernova87a wrote: post #27

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

Well to be specific, buying the iPhone comes with access to apps through the the App Store, not any software that you like. That's clear to almost everyone I would think. And it comes without any statement/guarantee about how Apple charges the developers or the agreements there. Most people have no idea, and don't care. Some apps choose to make their apps free, others choose to charge fees. Some want to have their in…

I bought a Roku recently, figuring as a more popular platform than my previous Android TV box that I would get all the popular apps. I was surprised to later learn that I wasn't getting an HBO Max app seemingly because Roku and HBO hadn't agreed on commercial terms (that I hadn't realized even existed). I didn't care, but it ended up affecting me.

The Apple/Epic fought reminds me of when sometimes content owners and cable networks are fighting over affiliate fees and it spills into PR campaigns targeting the public. Typical consumers don't want to think about it, but they can end up effective leverage in the negotiation occurring.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#65

Post by wmf » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:16 PM UTC

loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Over in Android land, discovery is so meaningless that they switched from sideloading to being in Google Play. As much as I want Epic to be right here, I strongly suspect they're wrong. Apple and Google have trained people to be completely and utterly helpless which (totally coincidentally!) locks people into the app stores forever.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#66

Post by parasubvert » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

No one is forced to use it: just stop developing for iOS.

Same goes for any other platform like Google Play, Xbox, Nintendo, etc. Or selling concert tickets through Ticketmaster.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#67

Post by kingnothing » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

tmotwu wrote: post #37

jclardy wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad part to me as an iOS developer is that Apple is essentially calling iOS a "service." I'm a huge Apple fan, but they have been digging themselves a grave in terms of developer goodwill with their reaction to these lawsuits.

This should alarm any developer. Any iOS developer could be at risk to pay Apple punitive damages whenever they determine their rules have been broken.

That's exactly how contract law works.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#68

Post by ksec » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

samatman wrote: post #26

I look forward to Epic's next set of suits against Sony and Microsoft, who offer basically identical terms for inclusion on the app platforms for Playstation and Xbox, respectively.

Yes. While I disagree with how Apple words, value and treat developers. Along with some of its guideline such as not allowing Apps with Search function that could return Website with COVID 19 information, I felt Epic is picking the wrong battle to fight.

If it was Spotify or some other productivity apps like MS office it would have been better. But Gaming.....

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#69

Post by ksk » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

jclardy wrote: post #28

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

The sad part to me as an iOS developer is that Apple is essentially calling iOS a "service." I'm a huge Apple fan, but they have been digging themselves a grave in terms of developer goodwill with their reaction to these lawsuits.

Yes, it is setting a dangerous precedent. A general purpose computing device is now a "service" that you need to pay for. With that logic you can call anything a service. An OS is a service that lets you stream "unlimited" video to your display. Given the level of greed displayed by Apple, they're going to setup a tollbooth at every single spot they can. Maybe Intel can setup the ultimate tollbooth on their CPU by providing a "computing service" that lets you use their CPU for an "unlimited" amount of time. Tech is so depressing these days.. :(

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#70

Post by nullc » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:17 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

The customer is the product isn't just limited to advertising companies. It follows naturally that Apple considers you their property and believes they can control others doing business with you.

Which, in fact, they can-- if you use their products.

There is, however, a straightforward way to stop them: Don't use their products.