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Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

wsj.com

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Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#51

Post by kevingadd »

bad_user wrote: post #33
kwanbix wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That something is written on a contract does not means that is enforceable. If not I will create a contract that says you are now the president and you will still not be.

The contract developers have with Apple involves use of Apple's property. A contract may not be enforceable, but only if it contradicts the law. In this instance, I don't see how.

What physical property of Apple's is involved here? There's intellectual property, but at the end of the day the purpose of their Intellectual Property Rights in this scenario is to ensure that after paying them $1000 for a phone they still get to collect 30% of all the purchases you make using that phone in perpetuity (as long as they can get away with it), while also limiting what you can do with your Physical Property that you paid for.

I suppose if you don't like it you can go buy an Android phone and just give away all your data in addition to the 30%.

Also worth considering: How much of Apple's intellectual property here could exist without them harvesting decades of free/open software development history unpaid? And now they're complaining that someone used their SDK after paying the license fees?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#53

Post by gpm »

bad_user wrote: post #33
kwanbix wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That something is written on a contract does not means that is enforceable. If not I will create a contract that says you are now the president and you will still not be.

The contract developers have with Apple involves use of Apple's property. A contract may not be enforceable, but only if it contradicts the law. In this instance, I don't see how.

> I don't see how.

I suggest you read up on this dispute then, because the whole cause of this dispute is that Epic believes the contract violates anti-trust law.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#54

Post by inopinatus »

Traster wrote: post #44

The thing that really annoys me about this entire argument is that the principal of the thing isn't really controversial. Apple provides a tonne of services (SDKs, marketplace, payment processing) that other people also provide and also charge for. It's not that controversial - in fact, Epic's Unreal Engine has the exact same revenue share terms as Apple. The only thing that's really controversial here is that 30% is…

Sorry to flatly contradict you, but the size of Apple’s cut is not at all controversial. It has never been a crime to be expensive.

The legal controversy is that Apple prohibit apps from advertising, linking to, or even mentioning that external account management/payment/service sign-up options are available.

This forces vendors to become complicit in misleading the consumer about their options, an anti-competitive position that distorts a market.

Some journalists may choose to focus on the 30% out of sheer crassness. Don’t be misled by sub-par reporting.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#56

Post by parasubvert »

kwanbix wrote: post #13
anm89 wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While in principle I agree with you, if Epic signed an agreement that they owed Apple a percent based on initial terms, then that is out the window.

That something is written on a contract does not means that is enforceable. If not I will create a contract that says you are now the president and you will still not be.

Apple’s contract is completely normal though. Resale distribution channels for locked in platforms aren’t new: Ticketmaster, PlayStation, Nintendo, Xbox, etc

The only difference is people want to change the rules because they feel Apple (and Google) have won the game forever and App Stores should now be regulated like utilities.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#57

Post by Hippocrates »

untog wrote: post #19
jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

"at Apple's expense" really surprised me in that statement, too. Certainly, Epic's move denied Apple money they would have earned, but "at their expense" makes it sound like Epic was going to bankrupt them.

Hmm, "at their expense" sounds incredibly accurate to me, but outside of the literal interpretation, this is usually used in a more dramatic way.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#58

Post by CubsFan1060 »

swivelmaster wrote: post #29
jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

What is boggling my mind about this is that Apple CLEARLY has a case because Epic violated the TOS, but they're stretching waaaaaay out there with the dramatic language and seeking punitive damages. (Especially since... come on, punitive damages for something that was live for less than 24 hours?)

It's still live. Just can't be downloaded or updated. But you can still make purchases with it if you've already got it on your phone.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#59

Post by parasubvert »

swivelmaster wrote: post #29
jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

What is boggling my mind about this is that Apple CLEARLY has a case because Epic violated the TOS, but they're stretching waaaaaay out there with the dramatic language and seeking punitive damages. (Especially since... come on, punitive damages for something that was live for less than 24 hours?)

This isn’t mind boggling, this is how legal arguments are made.

The punitive damages are about the what was caused by the ad campaign. Judges have a lot of leeway here if they don’t like how companies act.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#60

Post by rektide »

loktarogar wrote: post #42

> it is a multi-billion dollar enterprise that simply wants to pay nothing for the tremendous value it derives from the App Store. Half true. EPIC doesn't really get any value from the App Store except data delivery, which they're more than willing to do themselves. Fortnite is popular enough that the app discovery part of the store is meaningless.

Apple on the other hand gets plenty of value from Epic.

For example, 10 years ago, when Epic made the Citadel demo for Apple to show their smartphones could run games. Ground breaking R&D work, gratis for Apple, & legitimizing their devices.

https://www.theverge.com/21405805/epic-citadel-2010-annivers...

We'll see how much more bad blood Apple can make with developers before people start noticing & caring about the software they can't get on their i-devices.

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