Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#21

Post by noahtallen » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:00 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> just charge them for development tools

Thing is, Apple still charges $100 USD per year for a developer license which lets you distribute your app, so this is already happening! :)

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#22

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

[deleted]

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#23

Post by bhouston » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

anm89 wrote: post #4

It's as if Apple is on a mission to destroy the credibility and respect they had.

From a contractual standpoint outside of emotion, I think Apple will absolutely destroy Epic Games' position here in court.

The only think Epic Games can hope for at this point is for the court to find Apple is a monopoly and engaging in unfair business practices but I think that type of finding isn't even in the court's purview -- I think that anti-trust needs to be a suit from the US government? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#24

Post by gpm » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:01 PM UTC

toomuchtodo wrote: post #18

kevingadd wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Their whole argument is that the agreement shouldn't be enforceable, which is why they sued first. Naturally, that means they signed the agreement.

Sounds like, at least temporarily, the court believes the agreement to be enforceable. >In a ruling late last month, Judge Yvonne Gonzalez Rogers largely rejected similar arguments Epic made in seeking a restraining order against Apple regarding Fortnite development on iOS. There was no "irreparable harm" to Epic, Rogers wrote, because "the current predicament appears of [Epic's] own making." > "Your client created t…

Irreparable harm here means no harm that would be caused by not granting a temporary restraining order that could not be fixed by granting a preliminarily injunction later, or cured in a final ruling. It does not mean there is no harm (edit: Or that the agreement is enforceable).

The idea is just that the judge is generally going to maintain the status quo during the TRO phase (this policy exists because there has been such little time for legal argument at the point that a TRO is requested).

I don't see that any of these quotes are at all responsive to the person you are responding to.

> EDIT: @gpm The status quo is Epic abiding by the agreement they argue unenforcable.

Heh, just so you know you can reply to new comments by clicking on the timestamp and then clicking reply.

Anyways, I think I must be missing your point? The person you replied to appeared to be arguing about what the final ruling should be not about whether or not a TRO should be granted (which is where the status quo arguments come in).

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#25

Post by mhh__ » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

adsjhdashkj wrote: post #15

anm89 wrote: post #4

It's as if Apple is on a mission to destroy the credibility and respect they had.

I felt like every poor quality controlled release they've had on OSX for the last 10 years has been trying to do that. I feel lost. Wanting to have a simple OS that lets me develop with unix tools but also "just works". The expense i pay for Apple products no longer follows this, for me.

I agree. Apple are pretty much the only company in the world with the money, engineering knowledge, and clout to do a privacy first open ecosystem. On an Apple product you are free only to what Apple says is Kosher, why? Their customers will buy anything apple does, why not just go for it and be more open?

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#26

Post by samatman » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

I look forward to Epic's next set of suits against Sony and Microsoft, who offer basically identical terms for inclusion on the app platforms for Playstation and Xbox, respectively.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#27

Post by supernova87a » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

Well to be specific, buying the iPhone comes with access to apps through the the App Store, not any software that you like. That's clear to almost everyone I would think. And it comes without any statement/guarantee about how Apple charges the developers or the agreements there. Most people have no idea, and don't care.

Some apps choose to make their apps free, others choose to charge fees. Some want to have their in-app purchases charged 30%, others don't.

Lots of products charge you an upfront fee, and then more fees for various things in addition. I don't think you've got much of a leg to stand on with that argument. That would be like saying, I paid for my cell phone, I don't think that cellular carriers should charge me again for the monthly service -- they should bundle it all one.

It's a design and pricing choice. And you buy in or you don't.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#28

Post by jclardy » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

theflyingelvis wrote: post #5

“There is nothing anticompetitive about charging a commission for others to use one’s service,” Apple said in the filing. What about forcing someone or some company to use a service (apple's payment systems)?

The sad part to me as an iOS developer is that Apple is essentially calling iOS a "service."

I'm a huge Apple fan, but they have been digging themselves a grave in terms of developer goodwill with their reaction to these lawsuits.

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#29

Post by swivelmaster » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

What is boggling my mind about this is that Apple CLEARLY has a case because Epic violated the TOS, but they're stretching waaaaaay out there with the dramatic language and seeking punitive damages.

(Especially since... come on, punitive damages for something that was live for less than 24 hours?)

Re: Apple countersues Epic, seeks punitive damages

#30

Post by Traster » Tue, Sep 08, 2020, 9:04 PM UTC

jrockway wrote: post #3

Apple writes in their court filing: “Epic sought to enjoy all of the benefits of Apple’s iOS platform and related services while its ‘hotfix’ lined Epic’s pockets at Apple’s expense.” It seems that Apple has forgotten that each iPhone user already paid Apple hundreds (if not thousands) of dollars for the iPhone itself. It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, jus…

> It is reasonable to charge developers for development tools, but if that's what you want to do, just charge them for development tools.

This isn't how the software development eco-system works. There are tonnes of examples of providing free development tools with restrictions on use and revenue sharing agreements. For example, there's this little known company called Epic Games which provides the Unreal Engine for free- but with the following clause:

> This license is free to use and incurs 5% royalties when you monetize your game or other interactive off-the-shelf product and your lifetime gross revenues from that product exceed $1,000,000 USD.

And Epic doesn't even provide quality control, a discovery mechanism, or payment processing.