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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#111
post #88

I think that protesters didn't think it through enough. Yes, Lukashenko is an awful guy, but what is the alternative? Protesters say they are pro Russia - but in my opinion this is a grave mistake, and Belarus will soon find itself as a Russia-controlled state.

The protest is driven by naitonalism. They symbol of the movement is the a flag that thoroughly separate Belarus from the soviet past and Russia. Anti-Russia is built into the movement.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#112
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but electi…

And potentially making you a liability to unscrupulous dictators is smart? It's either pointless because nobody wants to fake results or you're another obstacle to remove.

In 1990, my brother observed the elections in Croatia that lead to the Yugoslavian war. Western Europe was recruiting young people to defend democracy and human rights across the continent. The bet was to stabilize all countries on the continent.

Pro-Serbian regime tried to fraud, but with the help of international observers, they got shutdown, votes have been reorganized when needed, and the sole presence of neutral observers acted as a strong deterrant. Now Croatia is a prosperous country that we enjoy spending vacation to.

Because of this act of courage, my brother got hired by the UN. From taxi driver in 1990 to now diplomat in 2020. He served in Darfour, Afghanistan, Mexico, Guatelama, Irak, Senegal, Sudan, Tanzania. Saved countless refugees from certain death, negotiated with dictators, put pressure one step at a time.

I understand your concern, but don't take courage for foolishness. My brother is not a fool, he is an idealist and will probably have more lasting impact on the world than me.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#113

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial re…

>Russia-Ukraine war and Crimean occupation

Here, fixed that for you.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#114
post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Slightly fewer than half the electorate in the US is excited to vote for an authoritarian president in their own country who has repeatedly talked about not giving up power due to term limits [0] or election results [1], a guy who praised Xi for just naming himself president for life and said he'd like to give it a shot [2]. It…

Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about…

[deleted]

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#115

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression. * General education (ideally, not state mandated) * General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training) * Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) * *Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate o…

> we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones)

Experts in electronic voting systems are discouraging the use of this technology for high stake elections, even with state-of-the-art schemes: https://www.belenios.org/faq.html

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#116

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression. * General education (ideally, not state mandated) * General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training) * Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) * *Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate o…

I don't think the problem with Belarus is the lack of these but rather of external forces. Russia thinks that Belarus belongs to its control; and a democratic system will most certainly be US-friendly.

This is hardly a citizen revolt against dictatorship and is one of the several proxy-war these two guys (US/Russia) are playing worldwide.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

> Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_Wars 130000 dead https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanian_Revolution 1000 dead

The Yugoslav wars were mostly ethnic conflicts that happened after the collapse of communism, not exactly a democratic revolution.

I concede in Romania, but that is an atypical case. The overall case of collapse communism was peacefull: Poland, Hungary, East Germany, Czechozlovakia, Bulgaria, Albania, ...

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#118

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression. * General education (ideally, not state mandated) * General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training) * Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) * *Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate o…

>* General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training)

The first two are relatively non-controversial, but also won't do much against security forces with tear gas and rubber bullets. I suspect the last would be controversial in the US as gun control/ownership is a very polarized issue.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#119

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

> Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. No, it doesn't. Recent history tells us exactly the opposite: 1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil) 2) Collapse of communism on Eastern Europe in the 80s and 90s. 3) Democracy in Eastern Asia in the 80s (Indonesia, Korea, Phil…

>1) Rise of democracy in Latin America in the 70s and 80s (Argentina, Uruguay, Paraguay, Chile, Brazil)

i'm puzzled to say the least. Aren't the 70s and 80s were the bloody decades of dictatorships there? For example:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dirty_War

"The Dirty War (Spanish: Guerra sucia) is the name used by the military junta or civic-military dictatorship of Argentina (Spanish: dictadura cívico-militar de Argentina) for the period of United States-backed state terrorism[1][2][3] in Argentina[4][5] from 1976 to 1983 as a part of Operation Condor, during which military and security forces and right-wing death squads in the form of the Argentine Anticommunist Alliance (AAA, or Triple A)[6] hunted down any political dissidents and anyone believed to be associated with socialism, left-wing Peronism or the Montoneros movement.[7][8][9][10]

Up to 30,000 people disappeared, of whom many were impossible to report formally due to the nature of state terrorism."

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#120

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.

I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc. Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup". Am I concerned that he actually would remain…

The problem is that your political opponents say similar things. They're convinced - perhaps wrongly, but as far as I can tell honestly - that anti-Trump politicians are encouraging political violence and will commit more terror attacks in the name of preventing an authoritarian takeover. They point to James Hodgkinson the same way you point to Cesar Sayoc. As someone who's extremely opposed to political violence but not strongly partisan, how can I avoid splitting the difference here?
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