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PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

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Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#71

Post by maerF0x0 »

pcbro141 wrote: post #56
dfxm12 wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

nobody on the US end seems to give a shit that local companies are facilitating dictators Slightly fewer than half the electorate in the US is excited to vote for an authoritarian president in their own country who has repeatedly talked about not giving up power due to term limits [0] or election results [1], a guy who praised Xi for just naming himself president for life and said he'd like to give it a shot [2]. It…

Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about…

> He openly talks about his autocratic desires

to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#72

Post by odshoifsdhfs »

kazagistar wrote: post #64
odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones. source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing) edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't…

I'm still not even sure what Russian values even means.

Whatever it means if you don't use the word 'values', basically they identify more with Russia than EU. The gp mentioned that they identify with EU values, and thus I used the same word.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#73

Post by malandrew »

cpitman wrote: post #68
crdrost wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The second US civil war only incidentally involves Trump. He happens to be the figurehead right now, but even if that changes we were on the brink before Trump and we will be on the brink after Trump. The underlying cause is a mistake of our founding fathers. Because of the winner-take-all structure of our elections, our political parties are forced to be forkophobic. The fact that we can't have a real Tea Party, to…

Any idea how to preserve the ability for people to go to "their" representative under that model?

With the exception of lobbyists that actually have a chance to make their case directly to representatives I doubt much would change as most people's way of contacting their representative is an email, letter or phone call, which pretty much is always answered by some random staff of the representative.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#74

Post by maerF0x0 »

For me, this serves as a stark reminder to invest in barriers to oppression.

* General education (ideally, not state mandated)

* General self defense (fitness, martial arts, firearms training)

* Technological counter measures - TOR, crypto, crypto currency, and IMO we should be pushing for electronic voting systems (not shitty ones, but truly great ones) *

*Edit: By great ones, I mean ones that allow us to validate our vote was both counted and correct after the fact. There are crypto voting systems that do not allow anyone (including the government) to know if you voted or what your vote is (identifying you), but still allows tallying and validation.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#75

Post by YarickR2 »

pstuart wrote: post #39
exo762 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Protests in Belarus are way more civilized than recent protests in both Portland and the rest of USA. The difference is stark, shocking, and puzzling.

The US protests are being sabotaged with violence from outsiders to delegitimize them.

How do you know Belarussian protests aren't ?

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#76

Post by YarickR2 »

qaq wrote: post #49
dalbasal wrote: post #45

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial re…

"Ukrainian civil war" russian propaganda is doing it's job well

"Russia bad" western propaganda does it's job even better

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#77

Post by perfunctory »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #67

Unfortunately, history tells us that almost all major gains in freedom come, at one point, through violent conflict/sacrifice. If one side (an authoritarian oppressor) is not afraid to use violence, and the other is prevented from using any response, the oppressor will win. This is why major changes usually require civil war. This is also why authoritarians definitely do not want their population to have access to we…

Major changes sometimes involve civil war, not usually. Statistically non-violent rebellions are more successful than the violent ones.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJSehRlU34w

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#78

Post by dalbasal »

odshoifsdhfs wrote: post #58
dalbasal wrote: post #45

This is tangential.. As a European, I feel that we are too disconnected from this affair. Just as with the Ukrainian civil war and Crimean annexation, a big part of this conflict is a conservative, repressive, Russia/Putin sponsored regime at odds with a population that identifies more with European/EU values... especially younger people. Russia see the dignity, prosperity and freedom of several nations as trivial re…

Ukraine yes, Belarus youth don't seem to align with EU that much. They just want a freaking democratic country. Most favour Russian values over EU ones. source: Current and previous gfs were Belarrusian and we had these discussions a lot (both before and after this whole thing) edit: And both parents of both women voted for lukashenko btw, as well as some of their friends (not saying he won or anything, but it isn't…

Conflicts with what I've heard from Belarusians, but possibly a bias based on where those guys live (here in Ireland).

That said, I don't think it really matters what how the average Belarusian sees it. Russia (specifically Putin, and probably many of his generation) sees a democratic revolution as 1989 stuff, and as a weakening of their "buffer."

Nothing is ever 100% but I think it's likely that most want Lukashenko gone. We can't know for sure without a free election. That's the point.

As I said, I do think mistakes were made in the past. Ukraine's simultaneous moves towards NATO and the EU were a bad idea, for world peace. That did not justify Russian intervention though, and it does not justify it now. It may even be for the best if the US stays at arms length. The EU, imo, should not. This concerns our interests and security just as much as it concerns Russia's.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#79

Post by pcbro141 »

maerF0x0 wrote: post #71
pcbro141 wrote: post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Exactly. It's annoying when people think you're being hyperbolic or "too political/left/anti-Trump" when you point out how uniquely dangerous Trump is. He openly talks about his autocratic desires frequently and a lot of Americans frankly don't care about an American president being an open self-admitted threat to democracy. We're in a really bad situation when a simple statement like "Presidents shouldn't talk about…

> He openly talks about his autocratic desires to be honest I've seen it as his form of jest, where he's constantly tryin to rile up his opponents. And he can get away with it because he knows his supporters have all the guns (at least amongst civilians). We'll see what the military does and if that institution is solid.

I don't see it as jest because I see he's purposely riling up his base to commit terrorist attacks on his behalf against fellow Americans like that mail bomber Cesar Sayoc.

Like his undermining of mail-in voting right now, it's obvious that he's doing it so that when/if he loses, his base will "defend" him as he disputes the legitimacy of the results and rejects a "coup".

Am I concerned that he actually would remain in office after losing? No. But I am concerned elements of his base will commit more terror attacks in the name of "preventing a coup".

That's why I don't see his undermining of institutions and democracy as funny or trolling to "own the libs". I think by now he's smart enough to be aware there are violent members of his base ready to use violence against perceived opponents and prevent a "deep state coup", and he is purposely trying to rile them up to commit violent acts against Americans by making them feel like they are "under attack/coup" by the deep state/left.

But we're supposed to pretend like a President "trolling" about term limits, illegitimate elections, coups, assassinating opponents, and civil wars is normal. This really shouldn't be a left vs right thing. In a normal world, these would be things everyone agrees are bad.

But I'm being too political/biased/left/Trump derangement syndrome for rejecting his undermining of democracy and fomenting violence so I'll get downvoted for my unfair pro-democracy anti-violence bias.

Re: PandaDoc employees arrested in Belarus after founders protest against violence

#80

Post by scollet »

411111111111111 wrote: post #66
pjc50 wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Based on data collected by from only some polling places, there is a huge discrepancies in results comparing to official ones. Most poling places refused to post results. People, who demanded to post results (as the law requires), were arrested. You can read more about it at belarus2020.org Whatever country you're in, this is a good time to think about becoming a poll watcher. The exact arrangements vary but electi…

And potentially making you a liability to unscrupulous dictators is smart? It's either pointless because nobody wants to fake results or you're another obstacle to remove.

Bravery at this scale is rarely risk-adverse. That doesn't make it non-intelligent.

A worse pain is inflicted under dictatorship over a longer period anyways so why not rip off the band-aid now?

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