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Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

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Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#31

Post by smokeyj »

hristov wrote: post #19

The dean of the Stanford engineering school has a very good point. Peter Thiel's dropout scholarhips are very much a rigged experiment. First he is going to select the brightest kids in the best schools. These kids already have higher than usual chance of success. Then he is going to give them 100k each. That will also increase their chances of success. Then he is going help them with advice and networking as much as…

This experiment doesn't prove that education is worthless, but that there's other ways to gain it. Personally, I could do without the tuition fees and snobby tenured professors preaching the State's religion.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#32

Post by richcollins »

Try getting a job at Microsoft, Facebook, or Apple if you don’t have a degree. There is almost no chance that you will make it past HR.

Bullshit. There are plenty of people at those companies that never got a degree but proved themselves in other ways (open source, made popular apps ... etc).

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#33

Post by jff »

keiferski wrote: post #20
eropple wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or, in my case, less than $25,000 for a piece of paper, some very valuable formal instruction that I draw on today (and, more importantly, knowledgeable people who at the time could put it into a context I could understand), some great contacts, some great work experience, an environment where I could take the time to build projects to improve what I know about my profession and my craft without worrying about making…

Even a public school education (at in-state rates) will run you 40-50k minimum these days.

Ah, but if you weren't too cool for school back in your high school days, you ought to be able to go very cheaply. In HS, I applied myself enough to get a good GPA; yes, like many people here I found it dull, but rather than just skipping classes and not doing homework because I was such a goddamn badass hacker rebel, I did my homework in the 30 minutes before classes started each morning and got something like a 3.95.

The local state school where I grew up runs about $1600/quarter. When I applied as a backup, they offered to basically waive my tuition because my grades and SAT score were good. Bright but poor kids should at least be able to get into state school for extremely low tuition.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#34

Post by cjy »

timr wrote: post #17
cjy wrote: post #5

Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea. The guy at Best Buy will also try to convince you to buy a warranty on your flat screen T.V. There are definitely some good reasons to stay in school, but this article rubbed me the wrong way. Take for example, a couple of the arguments presented: Argument: You get a lot of valuable social connections from being in school. Counterargume…

"Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea." This is an ad hominem , dressed up nicely. And from the article that I just read (maybe we're being A/B tested for ideology?), nearly all of the deans made clear exceptions for exceptional students. What a bunch of higher-education zealots. You also got the "arguments" wrong. All of them. None of the deans made an argument for greater…

The first quote wasn't an ad hominem attack because it wasn't directed at the engineering deans, but rather at the author. If you're trying to determine whether people should drop out of school why would you only survey deans to make a point? Moreover, it is perfectly valid to note the conflict of interest a speaker may have. Their incentives don't make their arguments wrong, but it should give us caution before making generalization or relying on their expertise.

I think we're talking past each other to a certain extent. The deans do make some good points. 1-4 are generally true. I just don't think they are sufficient evidence to show that students shouldn't drop out. They are saying that colleges are good social networks and send important signals to employers. My argument is that something is wrong when we are spending 100K on a screening/networking mechanism. Notice that none of the deans said stay in school because of the things you'll learn in the classroom.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#35

Post by williamdix »

thebigredjay wrote: post #4

Tom Katsouleas "It is during one’s undergraduate years that one discovers oneself, where one fits into the world and what it means to be human."* Four years and $200,000 for a piece of paper and a false understanding of where you fit into the world.

I have spent probably 30 minutes trying to figure out exactly how I wanted to respond to this post. I want to be able to justify the huge amount of money my parents and I spent to attend the University of Chicago. I can't really compare it to any other university, because its the only one I attended. I can't really argue that other universities would have served me better.

I feel like I got good value from the money we spent. There were other students, professors, events that I would never have encountered at another university. Unless something unforeseen happens, everything will be paid off in a few years.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#36

Post by Eliezer »

hristov wrote: post #19

The dean of the Stanford engineering school has a very good point. Peter Thiel's dropout scholarhips are very much a rigged experiment. First he is going to select the brightest kids in the best schools. These kids already have higher than usual chance of success. Then he is going to give them 100k each. That will also increase their chances of success. Then he is going help them with advice and networking as much as…

This is not an experiment. This is challenging the blind assumption of higher education, taking direct aim at the prestige of higher education, and disproving the belief that anyone who can stays in college and that people who drop out are automatically losers. Peter Thiel is saying with his money that he believes that bright, ambitious people are better off staying out of college. Will this prove it to the rigorous standards of science? No. Feel free to donate another $2M if you want to run that experiment your way.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#37

Post by mrzerga »

lots of good points from both sides, me thinks there is a growing need for change in the field of education, since the cost, mediocrity, and opportunity cost of education is growing at an alarming rate. I do not know know what would solution be - maybe some more real life experiences injected in the education - say 6 month study/6 month real life - work, startuping, whatever. me thinks that would provide more opportunities for young people than another course on greek philosophy instead. education needs to be disrupted, thats how I feel after I finished uni.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#38

Post by mmaunder »

Context:

"Vivek Wadhwa is .. a Faculty and Advisor, Singularity University, Visiting Scholar at UC-Berkeley, Senior Research Associate at Harvard Law School, Director of Research at the Center for Entrepreneurship and Research Commercialization at Duke University, and Distinguished Visiting Scholar at The Halle Institute for Global Learning at Emory University."

Wadhwa is a beneficiary of the college fees he is advocating paying. He's doing it under the guise of promoting education in general and has conflated Theil's argument with an anti-education argument.

The title of the article he's refuting is:

"Peter Thiel: We’re in a Bubble and It’s Not the Internet. It’s Higher Education."

One of Thiel's best points in the original article:

If Harvard were really the best education, if it makes that much of a difference, why not franchise it so more people can attend? Why not create 100 Harvard affiliates? It’s something about the scarcity and the status. In education your value depends on other people failing. Whenever Darwinism is invoked it’s usually a justification for doing something mean. It’s a way to ignore that people are falling through the cracks, because you pretend that if they could just go to Harvard, they’d be fine. Maybe that’s not true.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#39

Post by keiferski »

eropple wrote: post #29
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a public school education (at in-state rates) will run you 40-50k minimum these days.

Depends. Can you work? Can you hustle? There's a lot of free money there if you're willing to get it: I will have paid, all told, less than $25,000 for my education, excluding housing because I elected to spend more than really necessary, via scholarships. A lot of the rest was paid for by working during school--I had the lame little jobs during school, but I also participated in Google Summer of Code and had a prett…

Well, to use my school as an example:

In-state tuition is about 14-15k. Room and board is 5-6k. That's easily 20k a year (I paid north of 22k my first year) leading to 80-100k over four years. Not exactly something you can work through on a <$10/hour job (of which I have had many).

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#40

Post by keiferski »

jff wrote: post #33
keiferski wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even a public school education (at in-state rates) will run you 40-50k minimum these days.

Ah, but if you weren't too cool for school back in your high school days, you ought to be able to go very cheaply. In HS, I applied myself enough to get a good GPA; yes, like many people here I found it dull, but rather than just skipping classes and not doing homework because I was such a goddamn badass hacker rebel, I did my homework in the 30 minutes before classes started each morning and got something like a 3.9…

As an above-average, middle class student, I got a couple thousand in grants. That's it.

Unless you're exceptionally bright, poor, or unique, it isn't affordable. The vast majority of kids (read: average, middle class folks) get stuck paying 85% of the bill.

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