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Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

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11–20 of 85 posts

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#11
Wadhwa ends up helping Thiel's cause, not challenging it. He starts by proclaiming his bias and stating he "asked three [engineering deans] to help me quench this fire". But the deans try to challenge it with statements like "most will fail", "they aren't ready", "it would be a good thing if more [cohort] stayed in school", "it's unlikely they'll succeed", "getting an engineering degree reduces variance in your career..." Can those responses get more stereotypical?

He's right that students will take Thiel's message very seriously. His message is emotional, inspirational, anti-authority, and anti-establishment. And it's impossible to counter with those kinds of responses.

Also, the experiment that the Stanford dean describes is impossible to run, and the closest possible thing has already been realized. The people who want to drop out to take responsibility and start a venture are self-selecting. You can't just randomly assign roles like "you'll stay in school" and "you'll go to a startup" because the students would be emotionally invested in either decision. And many of them do already receive huge no-strings-attached financial assistance to stay in school.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#12
post #5

Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea. The guy at Best Buy will also try to convince you to buy a warranty on your flat screen T.V. There are definitely some good reasons to stay in school, but this article rubbed me the wrong way. Take for example, a couple of the arguments presented: Argument: You get a lot of valuable social connections from being in school. Counterargume…

Wasn't part of FB's initial cachet (for people outside of Harvard) that it was initially exclusive to Harvard? And wasn't Z being at H a prerequisite to H students using FB?

I've always felt like FB's success was due more to good timing and marketing (using recursive network effect) than anything else.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#13
The whole argument of "bubble" is not about importance of higher education, rather, it argues that the cost is not justified.

As a side note, I applied Facebook for internship when I have taken no CS classes in my college at all, and they accepted me. I am not sure how "true" his last paragraph about applying job in Facebook without a degree would be.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#14
post #5

Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea. The guy at Best Buy will also try to convince you to buy a warranty on your flat screen T.V. There are definitely some good reasons to stay in school, but this article rubbed me the wrong way. Take for example, a couple of the arguments presented: Argument: You get a lot of valuable social connections from being in school. Counterargume…

The only reason I signed up for facebook initially in college is because it seemed like it was something officially provided by the school. If nothing else, the fact that it had public defaults for visibility, but limited to an exclusive network struck a balance that college students liked. That would have been harder to do and to understand from outside of a college.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#15

Tom Katsouleas "It is during one’s undergraduate years that one discovers oneself, where one fits into the world and what it means to be human."* Four years and $200,000 for a piece of paper and a false understanding of where you fit into the world.

Heck, for all I know a public library subscription would be more useful in "getting to know oneself" by reading what the great minds of our world had to say about it, not to mention that it'd be a lot more cheaper

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#16
post #5

Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea. The guy at Best Buy will also try to convince you to buy a warranty on your flat screen T.V. There are definitely some good reasons to stay in school, but this article rubbed me the wrong way. Take for example, a couple of the arguments presented: Argument: You get a lot of valuable social connections from being in school. Counterargume…

You will meet others and learn from your peers by surrounding yourself by smart interesting people, but this doesn't have to be at a university.

Create that community. I fear that is harder done than said, given that none really exists.

No one used Facebook because they knew the developer was Harvard educated.

I don't know if Mark can do Facebook at Harvard and get traction w/o being a Harvard student. At the very least Facebook probably doesn't exist w/o a Harvard -- a collection of young exclusives who are technically saavvy. No Harvard means no Facebook, one way or another.

A better question is whether drop outs who start businesses are more or less likely to succeed.

A better question, IMO, do we need more startups than are currently being created? Imagine if college enrollment is cut in half. And we increase the number of startup companies by a factor of 20x. Is that net good? Will innovation and goodness increase as a result? I'm not sure it will.

It's almost as if the self-selection of having to choose to leave Stanford/Harvard is a good funnel for founders.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#17
post #5

Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea. The guy at Best Buy will also try to convince you to buy a warranty on your flat screen T.V. There are definitely some good reasons to stay in school, but this article rubbed me the wrong way. Take for example, a couple of the arguments presented: Argument: You get a lot of valuable social connections from being in school. Counterargume…

"Of course engineering school deans are going to think dropping out is a bad idea."

This is an ad hominem, dressed up nicely. And from the article that I just read (maybe we're being A/B tested for ideology?), nearly all of the deans made clear exceptions for exceptional students. What a bunch of higher-education zealots.

You also got the "arguments" wrong. All of them. None of the deans made an argument for greater success due to social connections (Wadwha makes fun of this idea at the top of the article!), none claimed that Zuckerberg was successful "because" of his time at Harvard (one made the argument that he "needed it for vetting", which is a different argument entirely), and none made the argument that "most" entrepreneurs are college grads (...or anything at all, for that matter; except for the rather uncontroversial argument that "most entrepreneurs fail", very few generalizations were made).

The most important arguments were the ones that you ignored:

1) Thiel's "experiment" isn't actually an experiment. It's a vanity exercise that will prove nothing, because it has no controls.

2) Most entrepreneurs fail, but you can easily point to the exceptions to make (fallacious) arguments about the value of education.

3) An engineering degree improves the average outcome for students, even if it doesn't help the exceptional cases.

4) At the companies founded by famous college dropouts, you'd be incredibly hard-pressed to get a job without a college degree.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#18

Tom Katsouleas "It is during one’s undergraduate years that one discovers oneself, where one fits into the world and what it means to be human."* Four years and $200,000 for a piece of paper and a false understanding of where you fit into the world.

Or, in my case, less than $25,000 for a piece of paper, some very valuable formal instruction that I draw on today (and, more importantly, knowledgeable people who at the time could put it into a context I could understand), some great contacts, some great work experience, an environment where I could take the time to build projects to improve what I know about my profession and my craft without worrying about making rent, and the ability to actually spell "piece". Pretty good trade.

If you spend $200,000 on undergrad, you're making a mistake. That does not make college a bad idea; it makes spending insane private-school money on college a bad idea.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#19
The dean of the Stanford engineering school has a very good point. Peter Thiel's dropout scholarhips are very much a rigged experiment.

First he is going to select the brightest kids in the best schools. These kids already have higher than usual chance of success. Then he is going to give them 100k each. That will also increase their chances of success. Then he is going help them with advice and networking as much as he can which will also increase their chances of success.

This is all good and well. I have no problem with Peter Thiel helping a bunch of kids with money advice and networking.

But THEN he is going to say "look, my dropouts succeeded therefore education sucks therefore you are better off dropping out." A lot of kids will drop out when they are not the best in the class, when they do not have the help of Peter Thiel, and they will be fucked.

Thus, as a social experiment Peter Thiel's dropout scholarships are worthless. They do not show anything unless Mr. Thiel creates a control group by investing in kids that do stay in school or investing in kids that just graduated college.

Again this is usually not a problem (not all charity needs to be a social experiment) except for the fact that Peter Thiel obviously wants to use his scholarships as a social experiment. He wants to use them as something to criticize colleges and education with.

Peter Thiel is a very smart person (and ironically also very well educated) so he knows very well this is a rigged experiment. He designed it this way. He has an agenda, and this is to bring out some kind of libertarian utopia to the US. He thinks that academia stands in the way of this political goal and he wants to attack and destroy academia by destroying academic institutions. None of this is a conspiracy theory, he is actually pretty open about all of the above.

And again, I do not have a problem with that in general, any American has a right to be politically active, and to work to bring about what he believes are positive political changes to his/her country.

But again he is using a rigged social experiment in his fight against academia. As bystanders we should be very well aware that this experiment means absolutely nothing and resist his urges to conclude that it means that education is worthless.

Re: Friends Don’t Let Friends Take Education Advice From Peter Thiel

#20
post #18

Tom Katsouleas "It is during one’s undergraduate years that one discovers oneself, where one fits into the world and what it means to be human."* Four years and $200,000 for a piece of paper and a false understanding of where you fit into the world.

Or, in my case, less than $25,000 for a piece of paper, some very valuable formal instruction that I draw on today (and, more importantly, knowledgeable people who at the time could put it into a context I could understand), some great contacts, some great work experience, an environment where I could take the time to build projects to improve what I know about my profession and my craft without worrying about making…

Even a public school education (at in-state rates) will run you 40-50k minimum these days.
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