My one disappointment with Singapore is the lack of genuine free speech, and the lack of freedom of the press. This simple void causes many things that are invisible to the eye, and it creates veins that run deep. Live there for any non-trivial amount of time and compare that experience and your conversations with peers to that of living in many places in the West, and the effect is striking, the way this gap can so…
Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
201–210 of 262 posts
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#202Earlier quoted context omitted.
Hand-waving things away with your absolutist statement is what truly seems naive. IMO there is far more nuance than you suggest. Democracy seems to work well for some types of problems but not others. What happens to democracies when faced with threats that manifest over very short timescales? They aren't nimble enough to respond in time. This is most evident in larger democracies; look at US/India responses to COVID…
Countries like Australia, South Korea and New Zealand have had exemplary COVID-19 responses. It has nothing to do with whether you are a democracy or not and everything to do with the competence of the government. And the people of the US will have an opportunity to vote in a few months on whether the response was adequate or not. I don't see the people of China having a similar opportunity for example.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#203Earlier quoted context omitted.
Countries like Australia, South Korea and New Zealand have had exemplary COVID-19 responses. It has nothing to do with whether you are a democracy or not and everything to do with the competence of the government. And the people of the US will have an opportunity to vote in a few months on whether the response was adequate or not. I don't see the people of China having a similar opportunity for example.
Did you consider it an exemplary response when Australian police arrested a pregnant woman for attempting to protest lockdown measures? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824
Just because she is a white, pregnant woman does not mean that she has the right to break the law and compromise the safety of the community.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#204Earlier quoted context omitted.
Because there's lots of low hanging fruit in terms of infrastructure, education, technology, etc. You don't really need to innovate, you can just copy other successful countries.
if it's so easy we would see more 3rd world countries advancing past their current state. At the time of independence, people were very pessimistic about Singapore's prospects, it just looks inevitable now given their rise.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#205Earlier quoted context omitted.
I have extended family in Singapore. I can assure you that the approach is not some libertarian utopia and neither is it some oligarchic capitalistic system sucker. It is designed to be practical and constantly adapt to reality. Today, that means a mixed economy. That means basic human decency will be taken care of by government, the remaining is market driven. This means housing, food subsidies, education and health…
This comment reads half like PAP propaganda, and half simply uninformed. > the approach is not some libertarian utopia Well there’s no such thing as a real-world utopia. But Singapore, having the free-est market in the world is about as close as you could get. > no xenophobia Hmmmm... Chinese racism against pretty much everybody else has been a long standing issue in Singapore. Just go on any Singaporean job listing…
What are we talking about? Xenophobia or racism?
Xenophobia is very low in SG. People expect to know foreigners and want foreigners to bring business or capital or skills.
And since you are using PAP values to inform yourself, please read their pledge:
"We, the members of the PAP, Pledge ourselves to build a strong United Party, to create a vibrant, just and equal society, through achieving excellence by all, so that every citizen, regardless of race, language or religion, can enjoy a full and happy life."
This is from wikipedia: The PAP symbol (which is red and blue on white) stands for action inside interracial unity. PAP members at party rallies have sometimes worn a uniform of white shirts and white trousers which symbolises purity of the party's ideologies of the government. The party also reminded that once the uniform is sullied, it would be difficult to make clean again.
> No one owes us a living. We will avoid creating the dependency syndrome a welfare state generates.
Do you know what this means in the Asian lens?
It means that they will collectively work to build their living because no other country will help them. It doesn't mean that they are going to leave their citizens homeless on the streets. It doesn't mean that they will let insurance companies shark out the lives out of citizens. They want to build a society where the basics are covered.
About 80% of housing in Singapore is mixed socialized (not the same as handouts or welfare) but a collective system that does things with goals in mind
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Public_housing_in_Singapore
Maybe it's really hard for people to even imagine how such a government could possibly work. Rest assured that the heavy hand of government takes care of basics so people can use their creativity to thrive on the free market built atop the safety.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#206Earlier quoted context omitted.
Did you consider it an exemplary response when Australian police arrested a pregnant woman for attempting to protest lockdown measures? https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-54007824
I live in Melbourne and her arrest is widely supported. Our city is in a severe lockdown and at a tipping point between New Zealand style suppression and US style chaos. Just because she is a white, pregnant woman does not mean that she has the right to break the law and compromise the safety of the community.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#207Earlier quoted context omitted.
This comment reads half like PAP propaganda, and half simply uninformed. > the approach is not some libertarian utopia Well there’s no such thing as a real-world utopia. But Singapore, having the free-est market in the world is about as close as you could get. > no xenophobia Hmmmm... Chinese racism against pretty much everybody else has been a long standing issue in Singapore. Just go on any Singaporean job listing…
> Hmmmm... Chinese racism against pretty much everybody else has been a long standing issue in Singapore. Just go on any Singaporean job listing site and search for “must speak mandarin”. What are we talking about? Xenophobia or racism? Xenophobia is very low in SG. People expect to know foreigners and want foreigners to bring business or capital or skills. And since you are using PAP values to inform yourself, pleas…
> Xenophobia is very low in SG. People expect to know foreigners and want foreigners to bring business or capital or skills.
An incredibly consistent social problem Singapore has had is dealing with the fact that Singapore is essentially run by Han Chinese, for the benefit of Han Chinese. Despite the governments best rhetoric, ethnic minorities and foreigners are still widely discriminated against.
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-28953147
> It means that they will collectively work to build their living because no other country will help them.
I really find it hard to believe that you’re actually trying to say LKY was an advocate for collectivism.
> "Cradle-to-grave welfarism blunted the ambition of many budding entrepreneurs. Worse, high personal taxes dampened the desire of many to achieve wealth and success." - LKY
> "the folly of populist politicians who win elections playing the politics of equal rewards or egalitarianism: squeeze the successful to pay for the welfare of the poor, and end up with the equalisation of poverty" - LKY
https://www.straitstimes.com/opinion/beware-the-welfarism-tr...
> “ I departed from welfarism because it sapped a people's self-reliance and their desire to excel and succeed.” - LKY
https://scroll.in/article/715572/singapores-lee-kuan-yew-on-...
> It doesn't mean that they are going to leave their citizens homeless on the streets
Except for when they do
https://lkyspp.nus.edu.sg/gia/article/singapore's-hidden-hom...
Also they’re quite happy for them to live in slums.
https://sg.news.yahoo.com/blogs/singaporescene/hidden-slums-...
> About 80% of housing in Singapore is mixed socialized
The HDB scheme does in fact provide a lot of housing. But more specifically, what it does is provide affordable housing for the middle class professionals to buy. If you’re too poor to afford rent, you’re not going to be getting any benefit from the HDB.
I’ve posted reliable sources for every claim I’ve made in this thread. You’re just posting incredibly liberal reinterpretations of reality.
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#208Earlier quoted context omitted.
Singapore is not a democracy. They have sham elections where the opposition party is only allowed to have media coverage by the single state run media channel for three weeks before the election. If your neighborhood votes for the opposition party you lose funding for things like public transportation. Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city. A…
As always, the truth is somewhere in between what you say and what the government portrays. 38 Oxley Road was owned by the Lees since the 1940s, well before any of them came into power, and well before property prices in Singapore exploded to the level they have now. It is also a stretch to call it "giant" or the "most valuable" piece of real estate, when there are hundreds of bigger houses in the nation. The number…
Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore
#209With no internal market, city states work almost completely different from other countries and if anything LKYs unconditional acceptance of this truth is underpinning much of the countries success - embracing its role and limitations and pursuing unique solutions suited for this situation.
Singapore started out, beyond a good location for a deep water habor, without natural resources at all - a homeless orphan somehow clawing into a billionaire neighbourhood despite having to pay for water, food, fuel, sand (essential construction materials), energy - paying for imports almost every other nations take for granted.
Surrounded by no exactly friendly countries, its sons have to sacrifice 2 prime years of workforce contribution to national defense, on top of having to spend the equivalent 25% of Germany's defense budget despite only having only 3.5M citizens (compared to 120M)
It's a disadvantage so fundamental and overwhelming that any call to adopt systems - econonic or social - is misguided. It's a place with little right to exist in the global world and only a ruthless, focused government free of ideological blinders would be able to make that work.
For Singapore to have value to the world, having no resources others desire, means being more efficient, more nimble and smarter/harder working than anyone else - its role fundamental connection between others that is so efficient that it beats all other arrangement. Water independence from Malaysia alone is a 100 year project - and has turned Singapore into the key exporter of desalination tech in the world.
And the battle has only become harder- money/offshore finance was the key lifeline and competitive advantage most small countries in the world in the last century... it got pulled like a rug under most of them after 9/11, necessitating much restructuring.
Changi is the world's best airport out of necessity, air sharing and absorbing the value of sea - port location being the only advantage the country was blessed with (and under constant attempts to be replaced by Chinese and Malaysian ports)
Singapore is South East Asia's business hub out of necessity, using safety and rule of law as a key advantage over the surrounding countries to attract regional HQs for jobs, tax revenue and growth.
No, most of these articles miss the point, comparing full fledged countries to city states while making some affordable to size as a supposed advantage, glancing over the extreme disadvantage inherent to it.
With reputation and trust gained of decades but possible to lose in moments, no, lofty talk of how things should be and simplifications and reflexive typecasting around authoritarianism few western press articles really convey the deeply nuanced and complex tradeoffs this country has to make to stay alive and relevant.
No, left / right ideology has no place here, fundamental empirical and scientific understanding of cold hard reality and day to day optimizing for the country's long term actually make this a pretty good place to live, especially in times of covid and LKY has more credit to that than anyone - not just because he was smart but because he never lost sight of the fundamental differences and unique solutions the country needed