Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore • Hacker News Board

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#161

Post by nine_zeros » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:44 PM UTC

leafboi wrote: post #116

wenc wrote: post #93

Wow. This article is one of the most compelling I've read in a while. There's even a bit in there about models and reality with respect to (authoritarian) governance and size, and why simplistic schemata suffer from large errors in larger states: "Decision-makers must rely on simplified models to make their decisions. All schemata are by nature imperfect representations of reality. Indeed, a scheme that reflected rea…

I think because HN's audience is mostly US based there's a high level of bias towards democratic governments. I think if we all take a look at it from a unbiased angle it's all really apples and oranges. A bad dictator is not so different from a democracy electing bad leaders and a good dictator is not so different from a democracy electing good leaders. The thing with a democracy is that you have a lot of checks and…

Choosing the lesser of evils systematically.

Imagine if Trump were legally authorized to be a dictator.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#162

Post by outside1234 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:54 PM UTC

AmericanChopper wrote: post #155

wenc wrote: post #93

Wow. This article is one of the most compelling I've read in a while. There's even a bit in there about models and reality with respect to (authoritarian) governance and size, and why simplistic schemata suffer from large errors in larger states: "Decision-makers must rely on simplified models to make their decisions. All schemata are by nature imperfect representations of reality. Indeed, a scheme that reflected rea…

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be conside…

This is just not true. There are very high levels of immigration allowed at all levels of society: from prostitute to executive.

And I am not sure that any system that basically subsidizes housing at the level they do can be claimed to be a restrictive welfare society.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#163

Post by kingkawn » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 10:57 PM UTC

sam_lynx wrote: post #113

ergocoder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's one flaw of democracy. In a dictatorship, if the leader is great, it will grow like crazy... It's like a startup with great founders. On the other hand, the problem will come when a hand-off needs to happen. Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process, so it has some decent hand-off process.

Eh, as they said in the article: "Part of the mythos of Lee Kuan Yew is that he succeeded as an authoritarian where so many others have failed." Singapore is the exception; authoritarian governments are almost always bad for the people otherwise.

Many Singaporeans will tell you that their experience is quite repressive

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#164

Post by dv_dt » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

sam_lynx wrote: post #113

ergocoder wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes. It's one flaw of democracy. In a dictatorship, if the leader is great, it will grow like crazy... It's like a startup with great founders. On the other hand, the problem will come when a hand-off needs to happen. Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process, so it has some decent hand-off process.

Eh, as they said in the article: "Part of the mythos of Lee Kuan Yew is that he succeeded as an authoritarian where so many others have failed." Singapore is the exception; authoritarian governments are almost always bad for the people otherwise.

Benevolent dictatorship is not just a sarcastic phrase, it is sometimes true for some distributions of benevolence in history. The more interesting question is what happens after he passes away, or cannot continue to make decisions.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#165

Post by kingkawn » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:01 PM UTC

freddie_mercury wrote: post #14

pydry wrote: post #7

There are a few key things to bear in mind about Singapore's growth model and success: * The proximity of power to population because it is a tiny city state. Singaporean governance is under extreme pressure to be effective because if it fails it cannot hide. This is a systemic issue that can be seen all around the world and is probably why some countries moved their capitals AWAY from population centres (e.g. brazil…

I live in Vietnam and I've always been surprised at the large number of Singaporean tech companies that open up development offices in Vietnam. And it isn't (just) to save money on salaries. The average quality of a Singaporean developer is shockingly bad for such an educated, developed country. And saying that Vietnam has more creativity isn't exactly a high bar given the similar values of Confucian hierarchy here!

Yes but Vietnam’s population has been through a millenia of war and they are the most enthusiastic group of people I’ve ever met for doing something well other than that

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#166

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:07 PM UTC

nine_zeros wrote: post #160

AmericanChopper wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be conside…

> Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Did you just pull this out of your arse? I don't know if you need training in google fu or just plain ol calling out on bullshit. At least google what they do with healthcare and immigration (for a country smaller than nyc)

I used to live in Singapore. I’m particularly familiar with how they do things.

> No minimum wage

> As a matter of national policy, MOM does not prescribe minimum wages for all workers in Singapore, whether local or foreign. Whether wages should increase or decrease is best determined by market demand and supply for labour.

https://www.mom.gov.sg/faq/work-permit-for-foreign-worker/is...

> User pays healthcare

Government offers a partially subsidised health insurance plan. But you have to apply and pay for it yourself.

https://www.sgmoneymatters.com/medishield-life/

> restrictive welfare entitlements

Singapore doesn’t have an unemployment benefit. You can get a few months worth of assistance if you lose your job. The closest it has is ComCare, which is mostly reserved for invalids.

https://www.msf.gov.sg/Comcare/Pages/Public-Assistance.aspx

> restrictive immigration

Singapore immigration policy has always focused on maximizing employment for Singaporeans

https://www.aseanbriefing.com/news/singapores-ministry-manpo...

Probably also worth noting, they don’t accept refugees:

https://www.refworld.org/pdfid/5a12da0a2.pdf

> low taxes

Singapore is considered a tax haven by many people.

https://www.iras.gov.sg/irashome/Individuals/Locals/Working-...

> Free market economics

It is considered to have the highest economic freedom in the world

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Index_of_Economic_Freedom

Singapore is basically an economic libertarian utopia. It is a case study in the effect of uncompromising free market economics.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#167

Post by destory-everyth » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:11 PM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #162

AmericanChopper wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be conside…

This is just not true. There are very high levels of immigration allowed at all levels of society: from prostitute to executive. And I am not sure that any system that basically subsidizes housing at the level they do can be claimed to be a restrictive welfare society.

It’s very controlled beyond prostitutes , helpers (maids) and labourers. They even specify which race and sex can do which job . Construction bangledesh (and some others) under 60. You must employ 1 local at 1400 a month to employ 7 Bangladeshi with no minimum wage and house them 24 to a room in what they call a dormitory , some might call a labour camp where COVID was out of control.

Helper , female under 50 https://www.mom.gov.sg/passes-and-permits/work-permit-for-fo... sourced from certain country’s only , At the professional and executive level it has been capped at about 200k and lowering for the last 10 years (out of about 6mil )

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#168

Post by AmericanChopper » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:18 PM UTC

outside1234 wrote: post #162

AmericanChopper wrote: post #155

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to consider the success of LKY’s first principles, you should probably consider what they are. Free market economics, low taxation, user pays healthcare, restrictive welfare entitlements, restrictive immigration, and no minimum wage. Singapore is a mostly-benevolent, mostly-single-party state, with rather poor individual freedoms, but an approach to economic liberty and self-reliance that would be conside…

This is just not true. There are very high levels of immigration allowed at all levels of society: from prostitute to executive. And I am not sure that any system that basically subsidizes housing at the level they do can be claimed to be a restrictive welfare society.

By subsidize housing you mean that the government builds housing which they then sell to citizens. Which is a form of middle class welfare, but quite different from what most westerners would consider subsidized housing.

If you’re unemployed in Singapore, you get 3 months worth of welfare from the government. After that you rely on your own savings. (Unless you’re permanently disabled)

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#169

Post by fakedang » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:22 PM UTC

ValentineC wrote: post #145

fakedang wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was going to type a disagree until you edited that last bit. I don't mind the authoritarianism, since the authorities seem very proactive towards encouraging foreign tech startups, but creativity is near zero and heavily sanitized, and most devs are poorly treated, I guess due to the massive glut of technical folks for the tiny population it has. Singapore feels so artificial, just like another Dubai. Going to Lond…

> Singapore feels so artificial, just like another Dubai. … Compare that to SG or DXB, where the homeless are stashed away/deported so that the tourists don't see them. Singaporean here. The central touristy area is artificial, but the public housing areas surrounding it are slightly more organic — with a fair share of homeless people who sleep on benches at night, too.

I agree. I've seen my fair share of homeless folks in SG, but I heard they are regularly stashed away in some temporary housing that can barely fit anyone.

And of course, for an actual taste of SG culture, one has to visit the hawker centres and the HDBs to actually get a feel of the city's life. But they seem so staid and artificial still, almost Soviet-esque, compared to their counterparts elsewhere. Even if I take a locality in Dubai (the other culprit here), the Dubai Marina is still vastly more lively than MBS, and the less fancier residential colonies in Old Dubai are still more lively than the average HDB complex. Shenton Way turns into practically a ghost town on weekends in comparison to its counterparts elsewhere.

Re: Lee Kuan Yew's Singapore

#170

Post by CyberDildonics » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 11:34 PM UTC

nicholasluimy wrote: post #150

jb1991 wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Singapore is clever enough to keep the democratic process Mainly it appears to be a democracy. Speak to any of the cab drivers there who feel somewhat liberated to talk safely with a foreigner who is on the way to the airport, and they will tell you something about Singapore's democracy.

Not sure if that's a fair judgement - It seems particularly endemic that it's almost a meme/stereotype in itself in Singapore; that all cab drivers are discontent with the government

Singapore is not a democracy. They have sham elections where the opposition party is only allowed to have media coverage by the single state run media channel for three weeks before the election. If your neighborhood votes for the opposition party you lose funding for things like public transportation. Lee Kuan Yew lives in a giant, gated, guarded compound in the middle of the most valuable real estate in the city.

Also criticizing the government is a crime and saying the wrong thing on facebook can land you in prison.