Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#691

Post by fault_lines » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 1:23 AM UTC

graeme wrote: post #532

marricks wrote: post #517

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them. People like Noam Chomsky deal with that question extremely head on. Below is what I said on another comment... > Absolutely no form of government or system (anarchist 1000% included) will solve the problem of people being selfish or bad, all that anarchists contend (that I have seen) is that when there isn't those built hier…

> is that when there isn't those built hierarchies bad/selfish people don't amass power so everyone else can actually handle them on equal terms But how do you stop a bad person from amassing power in an anarchist system? As a simple example, how would you deal with highway robbers? Those were omnipresent in societies before states gained strength.

How do you amass power in an anarchist system? In capitalism you generally amass power by amassing capital. What's the equivalent under anarchism?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#692

Post by mindslight » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 1:25 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #689

mindslight wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ideal model can be used to describe the current state of affairs as its pathological case. In the ancap paradigm, the existing government can be viewed as a really powerful corporation. In a left-flavored anarchist paradigm, the existing government is a large scale social contract. Or as you've said, an othered government is just a hostile group to be avoided. What matters is the overall heuristic of trying to sh…

Well, everyone has a sense of justice. Some people think that murder for "dissing" them or being too rich/white/gay/smart/stupid/etc is just and some think that smoking evil plants like tobacco is abomination and kills everyone who gets a whiff of smoke. We already have a solution for reconciling individual views on justice that works much better than what anarchists managed to show in their CHAZ/CHOP, for example. T…

Your comment isn't very coherent, and it's hard to assume good faith. Reading any anarchist philosophy will quickly lay out criteria for recognizing versions of justice that can actually be considered reasonable.

As for answering your question, that's exactly what my comment attempted but you didn't engage with what I said. You're effectively just arguing against straw men, and have invoked yet another with "their CHAZ/CHOP".

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#693

Post by fault_lines » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 1:27 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #689

mindslight wrote: post #686

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Any ideal model can be used to describe the current state of affairs as its pathological case. In the ancap paradigm, the existing government can be viewed as a really powerful corporation. In a left-flavored anarchist paradigm, the existing government is a large scale social contract. Or as you've said, an othered government is just a hostile group to be avoided. What matters is the overall heuristic of trying to sh…

Well, everyone has a sense of justice. Some people think that murder for "dissing" them or being too rich/white/gay/smart/stupid/etc is just and some think that smoking evil plants like tobacco is abomination and kills everyone who gets a whiff of smoke. We already have a solution for reconciling individual views on justice that works much better than what anarchists managed to show in their CHAZ/CHOP, for example. T…

The current geopolitical situation prevents anarchists from living in their desired society because there is zero (or practically zero) free land to create such a society without it existing within a state that is not anarchist. This should be obvious.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#694

Post by totony » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 1:41 AM UTC

tomp wrote: post #586

_jal wrote: post #244

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think Somalia is like some never-ending Stallone movie? Business still gets done. People work, get paid, buy things without knifing each other. It is true that without recourse to state institutions, there is more non-state-sanctioned violence, which is kind of definitional, but also true in absolute terms. But enormous amounts of daily interaction goes on with humans demonstrating perfectly normal abilities t…

> It is true that without recourse to state institutions, there is more non-state-sanctioned violence You're not really selling your case very well here...

I think he meant more non-state-sanctioned violence, because there is no state to do it for you

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#695

Post by pandaman » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:00 AM UTC

fault_lines wrote: post #693

pandaman wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, everyone has a sense of justice. Some people think that murder for "dissing" them or being too rich/white/gay/smart/stupid/etc is just and some think that smoking evil plants like tobacco is abomination and kills everyone who gets a whiff of smoke. We already have a solution for reconciling individual views on justice that works much better than what anarchists managed to show in their CHAZ/CHOP, for example. T…

The current geopolitical situation prevents anarchists from living in their desired society because there is zero (or practically zero) free land to create such a society without it existing within a state that is not anarchist. This should be obvious.

That's my question! How is "free" land is different from any other? It's just a convention established by the government i.e. if you try to settle on somebody's land then eventually armed people will show up and make you go. So how is it different from the anarchy? Who will provide the "freedom" of the land and is incapable to do it now?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#696

Post by johnisgood » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:05 AM UTC

wellplayed76 wrote: post #650

anarch1c wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m curious what makes you so sure the laws on the books are what’s keeping the majority of billions from randomly shooting each other. Just because laws exist doesn’t mean they’re what’s keeping your neighbors from randomly gunning you down given they could snap biologically despite the law. Anarchism doesn’t mean no laws or rules. Anarchism as a lawless violent mess is the movie version. One could even keep the Con…

How do rules get enforced? Who enforces them? Who decides who enforces? Do rule enforcers therefore have power over other people? What if people, or large groups of people don't like the rules and refuse to follow them?

> Who enforces them?

Everyone, and as the community grows they'll likely go form volunteer policing to some dedicated people paid via contract, as they used to be historically.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#697

Post by pandaman » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:06 AM UTC

mindslight wrote: post #692

pandaman wrote: post #689

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, everyone has a sense of justice. Some people think that murder for "dissing" them or being too rich/white/gay/smart/stupid/etc is just and some think that smoking evil plants like tobacco is abomination and kills everyone who gets a whiff of smoke. We already have a solution for reconciling individual views on justice that works much better than what anarchists managed to show in their CHAZ/CHOP, for example. T…

Your comment isn't very coherent, and it's hard to assume good faith. Reading any anarchist philosophy will quickly lay out criteria for recognizing versions of justice that can actually be considered reasonable. As for answering your question, that's exactly what my comment attempted but you didn't engage with what I said. You're effectively just arguing against straw men, and have invoked yet another with "their CH…

I get you, anarchists have some literature that describes their views on justice, I am fine with it. For all I care they might have some fashion magazines that provide guidelines on the reasonable attire for a sensible anarchist.

My question is still not answered by this and I don't see how is this related at all, to be frank. It's almost as if your answer is not quite coherent.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#698

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:07 AM UTC

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #633

gwerbret wrote: post #623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> It feels perfectly consistent to say that we ultimately need to end animal testing but it is okay to use animal products for your literal survival in the meantime. Out of purely academic interest, how are you not bothered by the clear contradictions in that logic?

I genuinely don’t see a contradiction? Let’s work hard to eliminate animal testing, even if that means developing new technology to solve the problems we’re currently trying to solve with animal testing. In the meantime this position would advocate to rapidly end all non-survival related animal products like cheeseburgers, while allowing some nuance for life saving medicine. Seems perfectly reasonable?

[deleted]

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#699

Post by fault_lines » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:09 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #695

fault_lines wrote: post #693

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The current geopolitical situation prevents anarchists from living in their desired society because there is zero (or practically zero) free land to create such a society without it existing within a state that is not anarchist. This should be obvious.

That's my question! How is "free" land is different from any other? It's just a convention established by the government i.e. if you try to settle on somebody's land then eventually armed people will show up and make you go. So how is it different from the anarchy? Who will provide the "freedom" of the land and is incapable to do it now?

I'm struggling to understand what you're trying to argue, to be honest.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#700

Post by mindslight » Sun, Sep 06, 2020, 2:22 AM UTC

pandaman wrote: post #697

mindslight wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your comment isn't very coherent, and it's hard to assume good faith. Reading any anarchist philosophy will quickly lay out criteria for recognizing versions of justice that can actually be considered reasonable. As for answering your question, that's exactly what my comment attempted but you didn't engage with what I said. You're effectively just arguing against straw men, and have invoked yet another with "their CH…

I get you, anarchists have some literature that describes their views on justice, I am fine with it. For all I care they might have some fashion magazines that provide guidelines on the reasonable attire for a sensible anarchist. My question is still not answered by this and I don't see how is this related at all, to be frank. It's almost as if your answer is not quite coherent.

The reason I referenced anarchist definitions of justice is that you brought up a straw man version of justice that doesn't survive the slightest critique:

> Some people think that murder for "dissing" them or being too rich/white/gay/smart/stupid/etc is just

The problem with your initial "question" and subsequent replies is that they revolve around a sophomoric understanding that collapses the philosophy into meaninglessness.

What I said in my first reply:

> What matters is the overall heuristic of trying to shrink the structures to be more local and manageable. Anarchism in all its various flavors isn't a prescription, but rather a rebuke of prescriptivism.

You may have a hard time seeing this as the essence of anarchism, as it is a general desire shared among most people. But really, we've got lots of anarchist thought in our political discourse. Blue team: drugs, prisons, nondiscrimination. Red team: guns, taxes, business regulations. But we have very little anarchism in our actual political results, except for maybe ancap for big businesses.