Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#581

Post by mgraczyk » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:53 PM UTC

drblast wrote: post #538

I think in many ways it's impossible to have this discussion with a U.S. audience. The idea of force and violence being the solution to everything is deeply, deeply ingrained in U,S, culture. Simply suggesting that reason and cooperation can solve some of the problems we in the U.S. attempt to solve with more violence is usually met with the "starship troopers" ideology that violence is the actual source of legitimac…

This is not a US specific problem. Pretty much any way you try to quantify this, the US looks similar to many European countries in terms of how the public feels about government uses of force.

For example, when asked how confident they are that the military will act in their best interests, Americans give similar answers to people in France, UK, Italy.

https://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2018/09/04/trust-in-th...

The US may be more partisan, with a larger portion of people on a side that can be identified with "increased use of force", but I don't think the US is qualitatively different overall.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#582

Post by mr_woozy » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

>Do you believe that human beings are fundamentally corrupt and evil, or that certain sorts of people (women, people of color, ordinary folk who are not rich or highly educated) are inferior specimens, destined to be ruled by their betters?

Can´t I believe in the first one without adhering to the second?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#583

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:54 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #556

tekkk wrote: post #535

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That is the failing of any devout believers who walk the line between delusion and reality so much, that they become unable to see their own actions from a critical point of view. Those with more grounded views I'd say tend to drift off from the extremity and channel their energy into something else. It's sometimes a shame when the idea these believers, not just anarchists, present might be plausible yet they can't a…

Yes, like decades ago, when the Senior VP of PETA thought all animal testing was wrong, unless of course it was to help her, because who else would fight to stop animal testing? -- https://www.consumerfreedom.com/2004/08/2628-hyperbolic-hypo... PETA Senior Vice President MaryBeth Sweetland on her use of insulin, which was tested on animals: “I’m an insulin-dependent diabetic. Twice a day I take synthetically manufact…

I mean I am vegan but I wear leather boots. I absolutely do not want leather boots but I work at a farm and do need boots. I found its very hard to find vegan boots and when you search for them you find boutique high fashion not work boots. I also drive an automobile which releases CO2 that is killing animals all over the planet through climate change.

I still think mass animal farming is grotesque and that we should end all factory farming immediately and seriously question our assumptions about animals as legal property.

Are you saying that in a world where life saving medicine requires animal products that those who use such a medicine cannot legitimately criticize the use of animals in science? It seems to me actually those with little choice in the matter have the most to make noise about. They need help from the rest of society to change the way the medicine is produced. They cannot do that themselves.

As a vegan I can completely understand why someone who believes in animal rights would compromise for life saving medicine. I also do not think you or anyone else has to be vegan, but I do think it’s important to talk about.

Honestly your comment reminds me of Mr Gotcha: https://thenib.com/mister-gotcha/

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#584

Post by ByteJockey » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:55 PM UTC

komali2 wrote: post #571

ByteJockey wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I really hope you aren't about to suggest the soviet union, that would be silly, considering it had a state, social classes, currency, and no general ownership of the means of production, and therefore wasn't communism. Y'know, this is a fair point for a philosophical conversation. It's a terrible point in a conversation about deciding how to actually organize society, however. You can't ultimately know what people'…

> d. Let's say someone comes to you and says "Hitler got fascism totally wrong". It's actually a really great ideology that Hitler violated by doing X, Y, and Z. Would you give this person power in the real world? What? No! Because hitler got fascism perfectly right, and fascism is a terribly unethical way to organize government. I meant specifically I am all about anarcho communism, it's happening and working right…

> Because hitler got fascism perfectly right

Huh, out of all the potential responses, this is actually the one I wasn't expecting. Mostly because fascism is notoriously poorly defined to the point where experts can't agree on what it actually means. To the point where the wikipedia page on its various definition is quite a lengthy read ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Definitions_of_fascism ).

While I agree with you on the downsides of the large, powerful nation states, My point was more about the rationality of outsiders to these ideologies. The reaction of "People labeling themselves this way enacted totalitarian governments during large parts of the 20th century, I probably shouldn't give any power to current people labeling themselves this way." are fairly rational.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#585

Post by Hoenoe » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:56 PM UTC

pessimizer wrote: post #211

torb-xyz wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anarchists obviously don’t think this will come about by itself, they simply believe that it is possible to organize society in such a way that the statement above holds true. Anarchists will generally argue that todays society prevents that from being the case (at least to a large enough degree). The details of all this (strategies, how to make it work, etc) is at the core of a lot of anarchist theory.

That's what I find so weird about most criticisms of Anarchism. Anarchists like nothing more than building systems and methods, then seeing how they work or could be improved. The only way to differentiate different forms of anarchism is through the systems they think would be most effective, and the methods they think would be most effective to bring them about. It's just a lot harder to build peer-to-peer systems t…

> It's just a lot harder to build peer-to-peer systems than centralized ones, although peer-to-peer systems are ultimately the most resilient.

I don't think that's true, top-down/centralized systems will become exponentially more complex with every new layer.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#586

Post by tomp » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 7:59 PM UTC

_jal wrote: post #244

zozbot234 wrote: post #121

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People are very good at conflict resolution because third-party arbitration is available as a last resort. They aren't nearly as good at it in e.g. the average Third-World country, where fair and impartial courts are not generally available.

Do you think Somalia is like some never-ending Stallone movie? Business still gets done. People work, get paid, buy things without knifing each other. It is true that without recourse to state institutions, there is more non-state-sanctioned violence, which is kind of definitional, but also true in absolute terms. But enormous amounts of daily interaction goes on with humans demonstrating perfectly normal abilities t…

> It is true that without recourse to state institutions, there is more non-state-sanctioned violence

You're not really selling your case very well here...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#587

Post by bufferoverflow » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:01 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #539

bufferoverflow wrote: post #534

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hmmm, no, it's a false equivocation. What do you do with really bad / evil people who got caught doing evil things (there's enough evidence to put them in prison). I never heard a good answer from an anarchist. You have to realize there are truly evil people out there. People who will assault innocent people, who will torture, who will rape, who will murder, who will do all of the above to a toddler. And will force t…

I mean, do you like that those people get off now if they’re powerful? Or if a cop decides to do that either nothing happens or they get let go with a million dollar pension? At least in a flat society you’d have an equal say to advocate for w/e you thought is just. Personally for me, and many others who lean left, prison or death doesn’t sit right because it doesn’t address the root of the problem and it’s often use…

Who are these people who we have evidence for such crimes and are let go?

Just don't pretend like killings of career criminals resisting arrest (like George Floyd) is what we're talking about.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#588

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

I'm not far from your thinking but as sad as people's behavior was during covid, I wouldn't use it as a general case, it's a weird and wide crisis.

Also human groups of various scales differ. Some 20 people companies self organized.. larger group may not be able to do so.

This brings the question of the influence of education (both technical and emotional). A group a wiser and well balanced emotionally would behave very differently under a pandemic than a group of medium skilled in both.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#589

Post by shadowgovt » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:07 PM UTC

lucb1e wrote: post #470

Nursie wrote: post #245

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And where in the world has it played out like this? Instead of examples of peaceful anarchism, the history of the world is full of examples showing that those with the will to use violence use it for their own ends, form gangs, and militias, become warlords...

> the history of the world is full of examples The written history, the recent past. We can observe settlements from the past but know very little about the time before farming because there were few or no settlements, which is not actually that long ago. This "will to use violence use it for their own ends, form gangs, and militias" might only be because we ran out of resources and space and shifted from "mother ear…

> One thing that is clear from history is that forming groups is bad.

Dividing groups and pitting them against each other is bad. Forming groups was the innovation that set our primate ancestors apart from their solitary mammal peers. None of us are as strong as all of us.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#590

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:11 PM UTC

amscanne wrote: post #393

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

The other flaw with that example is that there is obvious social pressure. If you try to cut the line, people will likely confront you. Situations where there’s no social pressure are different. During University, I was a believer in co-ops as a form of organization. I lived in and was actively involved in student housing co-ops. During grad school, I lived in a large house with 12 other people. I was the house organ…

Have you had the bliss of being frowned upon twice during covid ? by wearing a mask before others agreed, and then forgetting it (left in the car by accident kind) after society decided it was important ?