Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000) • Hacker News Board

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#601

Post by b112 » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:39 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #569

b112 wrote: post #562

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Holy whataboutism! With no laws, no police, no jails, no courts, and no justice system, everyone on of those incredibly evil people mention in the prior comment goes 100% free to continue their reign of terror. Yet, of course, that's exactly the same as some people who slip through the cracks of a justice system that catches many such people a year. Prosecutes them with attempts to be fair. Puts them in jail so they…

I mean sure in a society where no one holds anyone accountable that would happen. That’s not what anyone is actually advocating for.

You cannot just give people stern looks.

The end result is, you need to be able to use violence, against those willing to use it against you. Note, that can be a last step, but without it?

Those who care not about stern looks, "talking tos", or cold shoulders will literally take everything you have, and kill everyone.

So now you fall to mob rule, lynchings, and what? Power of the strong man?

As soon as you organize, to provide for a response to organized thugs/criminals/rapists/murderers, you now have a government. That's how governments came into creation ; shared defense.

And you need that 24x7. And the people doing it for the community need to be paid. And you need a way to judge, and sentence, and on and on and on.

You cannot simply wave this away.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#602

Post by mwfunk » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:40 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

I find this is the case pretty much anytime leads with, “As a , I believe that...” Like they make it sound like because they identify as an anarchist or a libertarian or a Christian or a mom or whatever is, that that determines their big picture view of everything, and they have to contextualize everything in terms of that thing. They want to have something to point at and tell them what they should think about, and that because their view comes from their personal identity, rejecting the view means rejecting them on a personal level somehow.

Like, an actual libertarian (for example) should be able to make a good case for their perspective without making it sound like their chosen personal identity is somehow forcing them to see things in a particular way. People should think things because they are rational, not because they identify with an ideology that they allow to dictate their beliefs on the stuff that they haven’t done their homework on.

TL;DR you can identify a lot of bullshit and sloppy thinking if you listen to what someone says after they invoke the dreaded, “as a , I think that...” and anarchists are no exception.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#603

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:41 PM UTC

almost_usual wrote: post #139

oxymoran wrote: post #11

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

I see this when dispersed camping, simple things like cleaning up at the campsite before leaving. Most people don’t have a problem with it but there are small groups who don’t care about anything. Those small groups tend to ruin it for everyone. You don’t see that at managed campgrounds because you will be fined.

If the cleaners decide to 'educate' the non cleaners, would they be seen has (hier)archists now ?

The small group ruining things is akin to the broken window. It requires some kind of regular process / hygiene to maintain the system in a good enough condition.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#604

Post by twblalock » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:42 PM UTC

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

> Any time I've heard anarchists try to explain how they would deal with the subset of people who are just real shitty in various ways, the responses have been either, a) in our utopia, you wouldn't have those problems, because hierarchy causes all of them, or b) increasingly convoluted and implausible-sounding ways to deal with crazy assholes without using force.

I see similar bad/evasive arguments from prison abolitionists, who have recently been given a higher profile as part of the push to defund the police.

What are you going to do with criminals, ask them to please stop victimizing others? No prisons? Not even for murderers? Really?

Looking back through human history, at all forms of tribal and political organization at all levels of complexity, you will always find violence and war. Those are not consequences of modern society or government.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#605

Post by luckylion » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

pqhwan wrote: post #580

luckylion wrote: post #426

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but that's a reset. "I don't like the persons who do the law enforcement, I want to become the law enforcement". And then, of course, not be replaced by somebody who doesn't like that style of law enforcement. That would most likely quickly lead to massive segregation by any major criteria available, as "community policing" essentially means "no written laws, no recourse, we'll apply them as we see fit", ergo i…

> “I don't like the persons who do the law enforcement, I want to become the law enforcement" IMO that’s an overly pessimistic view of those who push for community policing. In reality, it’s more like “we want people with stakes in the community’s wellness to police it, not those who see it as their daytime stomping ground.” > That would most likely quickly lead to massive segregation Really? Community policing = “no…

> Right, because we currently live in a society that’s totally not segregated by wealth, race, culture, religion, sexuality, or political views.

If local majorities set the rules and aren't constrained by the state in what they can do, you'll think back to these days as the glory when everything was (in comparison) diverse and people tolerated each other. Balkanization describes the effect of that kind of community policing. And you better be ready to adjust to local laws when traveling through the different zones.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#606

Post by agumonkey » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:45 PM UTC

tuesdayrain wrote: post #125

learnstats2 wrote: post #111

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your assumption that people must behave better in the presence of authority - and therefore worse in the absence of it - is exactly the assumption that is under question.

I certainly behave better in the presence of authority. It's unlikely I am the only one.

I'm shocked at how nicely this is wired into our brains. The slightest sight of a cop car in my surroundings cuts all desire to drive even near the speed limits.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#607

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:54 PM UTC

luckylion wrote: post #495

aarpmcgee wrote: post #339

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To me it seems that you seem to be imagining anarchy only within the context of the current state of reality with the sole difference of anarchy being set to ‘true’. I think a world in which anarchy were dominant would be structured quite differently and involve humans with fundamentally nonviolent dispositions. My belief is that this is possible.

Are resources still scarce in an anarchist society? Then you will still have conflict. And changing fundamental biology is probably possible, but neither a quick thing nor an easy one. "Humans will be biologically different once we live in a new society" gets filed under magic in my opinion. Communists tend to use that as an explanation as well, and it didn't happen, and not for lack of trying or lack of commitment,…

[deleted]

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#608

Post by acituan » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 8:55 PM UTC

marricks wrote: post #517

TulliusCicero wrote: post #354

> Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. It is really a very simple notion. This can sound reasonable when you think of it in terms of, " most people behaving in a reasonable fashion, most of the time". But anarchists don't want to eliminate hierarchical use of force for most cases, but for all of them. Any time I've heard…

I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them. People like Noam Chomsky deal with that question extremely head on. Below is what I said on another comment... > Absolutely no form of government or system (anarchist 1000% included) will solve the problem of people being selfish or bad, all that anarchists contend (that I have seen) is that when there isn't those built hier…

> I find it hard to believe you've talked to any real anarchists, or at least listened to them

True scotsman fallacy aside, what the top minds on anarchy think is not as relevant as what most people/anarchists understand of it, if we are talking about a non-hierarchical self-administering system, because performance of the system will approximate to the median (mis)understanding of them.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#609

Post by Hoenoe » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:02 PM UTC

lucasnortj wrote: post #118

Reading this article it’s almost as if Graeber never looked at the world around him and saw how people behave when they see that law and order has broken down e.g. the London riots of 2010 where everyone ran to loot the nearest Foot Locker as soon as they realised no one would stop them.

Please read: https://thecorrespondent.com/443/brace-yourself-for-the-most...

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#610

Post by TaylorAlexander » Sat, Sep 05, 2020, 9:03 PM UTC

b112 wrote: post #595

TaylorAlexander wrote: post #583

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean I am vegan but I wear leather boots. I absolutely do not want leather boots but I work at a farm and do need boots. I found its very hard to find vegan boots and when you search for them you find boutique high fashion not work boots. I also drive an automobile which releases CO2 that is killing animals all over the planet through climate change. I still think mass animal farming is grotesque and that we should…

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_for_the_Ethical_Treatme... You cannot oppose all animal testing, say it is morally wrong under all circumstances, then ... because you're fighting to end it, say in your special little case -- it is OK. PETA representatives have often said that killing animals, is not worth saving one human life. Such broken logic indicates that this person thinks that they are special. They aren'…

It feels perfectly consistent to say that we ultimately need to end animal testing but it is okay to use animal products for your literal survival in the meantime. Perhaps they don’t have such a position. But it feels pretty wrong headed to me to mock PETA because a diabetic uses insulin rather than take heed to their very real and very important message about the abuse of animals in our society. It feels like you’re purposefully redirecting the conversation away from yourself because you do not want to discuss animal abuse.