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Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

481–490 of 839 posts

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for the answer, but what does that mean practically? Anarchy is only for anarchists (which the correct mindset)? What about all the other people?

One of the fundamental ideas behind anarchy is that legitimate authority only comes from the community that authority affects. So, say you live in an anarchist commune, but do not believe in anarchy yourself. You're still invited to the meetings where policy is decided, and while you're not forced to, there's a lot of peer pressure to attend. You're still subject to the group's decisions. Say you completely disagree…

And who makes sure that the authority comes only from the community this authority affects?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#482
post #441

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> we’re witnessing an unprecedented wealth transfer right now in the US Indeed. And it must be regarded as infinitely baffling that everyone is shouting "abolish the police" instead of "redistribute the wealth" ...

The police are the ones who are practically preventing the redistribution of the wealth. Without them, 1/30th of the vacant residential stock in the US would be filled with 100% of the homeless people in the US, for example. (There are approximately 35x as many vacant houses/apartments in the US as there are homeless.)

...until the major REITs and large private landlord corps hire private security to kick them out, with extreme violent prejudice to send a message, because who're you gonna call to stop them from brutal and unlawful eviction anyway, once you get rid of the police? It's not like the homeless can afford attorneys for eviction court.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#483
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’m also not an anarchist, I don’t believe these are good examples. In fact, they could be an argument for anarchism. With a lack of stimulus or even just in this economic system, bars and businesses in general are incentivized to stay open. They are being ‘coerced’ to stay open. People started rejecting masks and shutdowns en masse after astroturfing and media convinced them to. There are countries where order…

Capitalism is fundamentally built on competition, it pits all participants against one another. It stratifies social bonds and breaks people apart because any cooperation represents unrealized exploitation. Its why people are so miserable en masse, hostile, and chomping at the bit for targets to attack and hate. Its worse in America because theres almost no socialism at all to raise the floor of society - the country…

Ask the hundreds of millions of murdered Chinese or a Russian how well alternatives to capitalism work out.

Maybe the problem isn't the economic model.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Thousands of raiders" don't magically appear, you prevent them by preventing the conditions necessary for thousands of people to unite with the goal of hurting others.

How would you prevent that without a power structure?

How does a power structure prevent it? Raiders are a result of people unable to live off their of own labor, generally as a result of the exploitation of others.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#485
post #378

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I’m also not an anarchist, I don’t believe these are good examples. In fact, they could be an argument for anarchism. With a lack of stimulus or even just in this economic system, bars and businesses in general are incentivized to stay open. They are being ‘coerced’ to stay open. People started rejecting masks and shutdowns en masse after astroturfing and media convinced them to. There are countries where order…

Capitalism is fundamentally built on competition, it pits all participants against one another. It stratifies social bonds and breaks people apart because any cooperation represents unrealized exploitation. Its why people are so miserable en masse, hostile, and chomping at the bit for targets to attack and hate. Its worse in America because theres almost no socialism at all to raise the floor of society - the country…

You think socialist and communist counties don't have drug addiction problems?

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#486
post #257

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except infrastructure in most of the US is communally owned, and we had to institute authority and fines for littering. While it's true that there exists some societies that have been able to overcome the tragedy of the commons (it's usually extremely small homogeneous societies), I don't think we have any evidence to suggest that it can provably be replicated to the rest of the world. It's like suggesting that there…

If authority turns out to be absolutely necessary, that's okay. It just has to be limited and kept in check. As for the tragedy of the commons being only transcended in small homogenous groups, that's stretching the definition of small and you can still have norms for larger groups without introducing tons of authority. As for as some companies being able to WFH and others not, there are reasons that can be anaylized…

> As for the tragedy of the commons being only transcended in small homogenous groups, that's stretching the definition of small and you can still have norms for larger groups without introducing tons of authority.

I'm not sure what's more of a stretch: defining "farmers in the Swiss Alps" as as "small" community, or suggesting that what works for farmers in the remote Swiss Alps necessarily works for New York City or London or Amsterdam. What happens when people leave their cars parked on the sidewalk? What happens when people litter their dockless bike/scooter-share wherever they please, with no repercussions? What happens when a bicyclist in Brooklyn gets run over by an SUV? What happens if I decide that I like your house, and take it from you by force with my big gun along with my big goon friends, or perhaps even kill you for it? Hell, I live in Brooklyn where there are actual laws and policing RIGHT NOW, and there's still trash littered on the ground, dog walkers occasionally leaving their poop un-picked, and cars sometimes parked on the sidewalk: https://www.google.com/maps/@40.681231,-73.974329,3a,75y,334...

The devil is in the details, and the circumstances that make something work in the Swiss Alps are important, confounding variables. At best, the evidence suggests that minimal order can work in rural agrarian communities, and we see a lot of that play out in rural parts of the US and the EU already.

> If authority turns out to be absolutely necessary, that's okay. It just has to be limited and kept in check.

The vast majority of people agree with this. The contention is at what point this actually turns out to be "absolutely necessary", that's where reasonable people disagree. In an increasingly urbanized and globalized world, the point at which that happens has long since passed. The argument that the GP commenter made can probably rephrased as "anarchy doesn't scale".

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#487
post #423

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, despite what anarcho-capitalists may say, in an anarchist society you would find it very hard to maintain capitalism as is familair to us today. This is because the State, and by extension its threat of violence, enforces private property rights. In a truly anarchist system where no other protection force evolves to reinstitute the government's role in protecting private property, you would have a very hard tim…

If you run a pub, either you're tougher than any challengers or you employ bouncers. Maybe you even have the local community on your side because they like how you run the pub. The problem is if someone amasses enough capital to pay a gang of thugs to do his bidding. Then you can just take over properties, which earn you more money to pay more thugs. You can easily scale that to a global organisation. That's basicall…

But according to anarchist theory, those thugs wouldn't do that because that would violate anarchy. This is the problem with most political theories. They assume near 100% compliance.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#488
post #449

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I mean, flipping that on its head where does the "dark side of humanity" end up? Looking at all the police brutality, the Epstein's, the Koch brothers, the crappy politicians... I mean the crap really seems to float to the top of society. In a society without hierarchies, an anarchist society, you still have groups and communication and working together, you just don't have people above you telling you something is O…

I don't think it's realistic to believe that hierarchies wouldn't emerge one way or another. The hierarchy can arise in the form of a mafia, or in a more regulated way.

This was a fantastic essay by a first-wave feminist about the "tyrrany of structurelessness". The idea is basically that if you abolish formal hierarchies, hieararhcies will be established but they'll be informal ones, outside any system of checks and balances. It was dealing with a smaller scale that an entire political system, but it stuck with me and I think it's relevant here: https://www.jofreeman.com/joreen/tyranny.htm

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#490

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

Ok, I will tell you again. In my community, people wear masks and social distance without being forced or told to. They do it for the same reason they wait in line at the bus.

What's the reason?
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