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Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#331

Post by mrmonkeyman »

komali2 wrote: post #325
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

Ok, I will tell you again. In my community, people wear masks and social distance without being forced or told to. They do it for the same reason they wait in line at the bus.

Granted lots of cultures find waiting in line to be a repulsive and/or alien concept.

Italy is a good example..

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#332

Post by jtolmar »

csours wrote: post #133

I don't understand anarchy. Take littering for an example. Would an anarchist system (oxymoron alert) have fines for littering? How about signs and a slogan? TV advertisements? Another example: I regularly volunteer at conventions. Somewhere between 90 and 95% of people follow the rules without much prompting. 5-10% of people don't... but I sincerely believe that without volunteers watching, that number would go up s…

The system a convention uses of having volunteers watching for bad behavior is actually already similar to anarchist concepts of community self defense.

Under an anarchist society, the folks tasked with handling these sorts of things would be volunteers elected by the community (in a con they're instead volunteers screened by the con committee). There would also be an expectation that, in public spaces, it's everyone's job to step in and stop a problem like, say, sexual harassment (which some cons also expect).

Having seen these principles in action at CHOP, I think it really does provide a better and more equitable outcome. However, anarchist systems do suffer from moving very slowly at times.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#333

Post by komali2 »

erinnh wrote: post #308
boomboomsubban wrote: post #291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not a "some times" statement, it posits that humans are capable of living reasonably without being forced. That people sometimes behave unreasonably is a different matter.

Not really. It is very relevant. You only need someone to behave unreasonable even once to destroy multiple peoples lives. There are enough psychopaths in the world to fuck up any kind of system that's not completely based on separation of powers. I would posit that communism would probably also be pretty nice for most people, if it actually worked. So far it hasn't, and its pretty unrealistic that it ever will. That…

What examples of communism are you looking at that "haven't worked?" I really hope you aren't about to suggest the soviet union, that would be silly, considering it had a state, social classes, currency, and no general ownership of the means of production, and therefore wasn't communism.

Might surprise you to learn that communism is working this very day, on communes all across the world. Also, the basic tenants of it have manifested themselves in various civilizations throughout history.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#334

Post by luckylion »

vidarh wrote: post #155
csours wrote: post #133

I don't understand anarchy. Take littering for an example. Would an anarchist system (oxymoron alert) have fines for littering? How about signs and a slogan? TV advertisements? Another example: I regularly volunteer at conventions. Somewhere between 90 and 95% of people follow the rules without much prompting. 5-10% of people don't... but I sincerely believe that without volunteers watching, that number would go up s…

Consider that your conventions do not require the power of law enforcement to be able to deal with most problems. You can self-organise to set rules, and show away people who refuse to comply. Anarchists want more of that, and less of power imposed from above. Proudhon, the father anarchism, was a mutualist - he wanted most functions of society to be contracted between people,the way a convention goer agrees to terms…

> You can self-organise to set rules, and show away people who refuse to comply.

Aka "we don't need law enforcement, we can become law enforcement ourselves". And then you have law enforcement. Sounds like a reset more than an alternative.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#335

Post by kempbellt »

Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

The issue with your premise is in defining "behaving in a reasonable fashion". This is incredibly subjective. It also speaks to the ignorance that privileged people have in regards to assuming everyone else must also have.

In many cases, "Just close shop for two weeks (or maybe a year? Who knows...), and also you have to wear a mask all the time now" is not a reasonable ask. People have mouths to feed and bills to pay. Telling them to just shut off their income is a non-starter. And no, a $1200 stimulus check doesn't cut it. Banks still want their money.

"Okay fine, but why isn't everyone just wearing a mask? It's simple! insert judgmental angry emoji here"

Well, a lot of places ran out of masks (and toilet paper for some reason...) early on (thank you sensationalism + news) making it impossible to get one. Someone tried refusing me access to a grocery store that I went to to buy a mask because, guess what, I didn't have a mask (after multiple repeated attempts to buy one in my area). Tell me how this is reasonable?

Since then, it's really been a crapshoot for what you think the rules are for wearing one in public. Where I am, if you are outside, you don't need one, and no one is expected to wear one, but you keep your distance physically. If you go inside, you wear a mask - unless you are sitting at a table, then you don't need one, sometimes...? Every news outlet/friend/family member you hear from on the matter has a different take on what is standard procedure now.

A lot of the "reasonable asks" of people surrounding COVID are not actually as reasonable as they sound in a one sentence, "You have to close shop and wear masks now!" mandate from a politician.

It's hard for me to believe that a "fuck it.." mentality wouldn't evolve around the issue.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#336

Post by kgran »

I don't know much about this kind of stuff, but if the natural kind of division of labour still exists in an anarchist society, some group would eventually be elected to act as those who catch thieves, rapists, murderers, con artists and the kind. Not every person nor group is suited for this dangerous job as a specially elected, trained and paid group of people, so the emergence of 'anarchist' police would be inevitable.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#337

Post by niek_pas »

DeusExMachina wrote: post #36

Funny how any ideology can take our common beliefs and say: "See? You are one of us". I didn't know who this guy was until he died last week and was celebrated as a great thinker. I am not familiar with his body of work. But if it's along the lines of "all good is on my side and all bad is on the enemy's side" he was not a thinker. He was just an ideologue.

Perhaps, rather than speculating on his work, you could read some of it, and refrain from commenting on it until you have done so.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#338

Post by komali2 »

username90 wrote: post #314
bloudermilk wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of all the hypotheticals, taxation has to be the most incongruent with anarchism.

That is my point. I strongly believe taxation is absolutely necessary for a good society. This part should have been addressed in the article but he skips over it completely. If you believe that every human should receive education and healthcare and be protected from criminals then you aren't an anarchist.

Wouldn't this be where anarcho communism comes into play? If there's no currency there's not really a need for taxation.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#339

Post by aarpmcgee »

luckylion wrote: post #319
GrantSolar wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they cause lots of outbreaks. >The government recommended remote work whenever possible but many companies just ignored it in spite of having many workers that could perfectly work remotely, and just implement it…

What would the anarchist alternative be, provided everybody still needs to eat. Let's keep money as a simple placeholder for value. If the reasonable people wouldn't open the clubs, how would they make money? Okay, their landlords are reasonable as well, and don't charge rent. And their grocery store gives them food for free? How would they determine who is so reasonable they get the reason-treatment of free food eve…

To me it seems that you seem to be imagining anarchy only within the context of the current state of reality with the sole difference of anarchy being set to ‘true’. I think a world in which anarchy were dominant would be structured quite differently and involve humans with fundamentally nonviolent dispositions. My belief is that this is possible.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#340

Post by HoveringOrb »

brobdingnagians wrote: post #323
Al-Khwarizmi wrote: post #209

I have never believed in anarchism, as I don't believe that "human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to". But with COVID-19, I am seeing more proof than ever. In my country (but I guess it's the same in most, except perhaps some Nordic countries) bars, pubs and discos only reduce seating or close indoor spaces when forced to by law, in spite of the evidence that they c…

> it's not that "most politicians are selfish, egotistical swine", it's that many people are. But you are saying this because you _agree_ with the politicians. You believe your preferred course of action is better than most peoples'. There are different viewpoints and pilosophies on what would work out best. There is disagreement on what course of action will get society through it and optimize future outcomes. It is…

>There are different viewpoints and pilosophies on what would work out best.

In this case, it mostly seems to be a difference between what Joe Blow says and what actual epidemiologists say. One of these is decidedly more valid than the other. I'm sure the experts disagree on some points, but these are details compared to the difference between the overall message they offer and what some self-centered goob or conspiracy theorist wants.

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