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Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

theanarchistlibrary.org

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Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#71

Post by sokoloff »

onion2k wrote: post #52
oxymoran wrote: post #11

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

The line you quoted doesn't say that people will act reasonably, but rather that they are capable of acting reasonably. The interesting (and massive) problem is figuring out why some people act unreasonably in the same situation as someone else who doesn't. If it's something that can be addressed through mechanisms like the provision of healthcare, UBI, equality, or addressing inequality then perhaps society can be s…

> addressed through mechanisms like the provision of healthcare, UBI, equality, or addressing inequality then perhaps society can be structured to have a very minimal government

The (most likely/obvious implementation of the) first half of that seems diametrically opposite of “very minimal government”.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#72

Post by icedchocolate »

“ Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to. “

Lol you lost me immediately. This is essentially pretending anti-vaccers and other groups of people just don’t exist. Just because you’re in a bubble of educated, reasonable people, doesn’t mean everyone is like that, sadly.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#73

Post by feralimal »

vidarh wrote: post #62
feralimal wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Absolutely. The system is pervasive and we have to live within it. But should you embrace it? While Yale and LSE are no doubt great institutions, to my mind they are also up there as educators of those who go on to become the system's top managers.

LSE has a history as a hotbed of activism ever since it was the focal point of UK student rebellions in the late 60s. It's not nearly as Conservative as you might think.

Hotbed is right. The institution literally force grows radicalism. And yet, it is considered a top university.

The reason is that it helps to present what is in fact a false dichotomy. The radical thought they support is that within the Overton window. Nothing that would really shake up the ruling elite is expressed there. Like CNN and Fox news.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#74

Post by QuesnayJr »

amadeuspagel wrote: post #25

I wonder how a similar essay for other ideologies would look like. Do you buy things? You're a capitalist. Do you keep some things the way they are? You're a conservative. Do you clean your room? You're a fascist. But I doubt someone would bother writing such essays, and if someone did, I doubt it would get upvoted to the HN frontpage. What is it about this that appeals to people? An ideology that feels edgy, but doe…

I have definitely seen those kinds of essays, for all kinds of positions. It's a natural strategy of persuasion -- "See, you already agree with me 90%, so why not take the final step and join me?" The most obnoxious one I remember reading was one that argued "Do you believe in a world that can be understood? Then by this tortured logic, you are already a Christian."

Aside: "Do you clean your room? You're a fascist" is very funny.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#75

Post by feralimal »

vidarh wrote: post #70
feralimal wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I suspect that David Graeber, who quietly self-proclaimed himself as one of the leaders of Occupy Wall Street, was one of those people designed to make 'anarchistan' a distant reality. He would take the energy invested in him and then faceplant before the finish line. By say, proposing that the left wing should be voted for. He was in support of Corbyn etc - this is to say he was happy to work within the system…

Libertarianism was conceived by the anarcho-communist Joseph Dejacque, who first used the term to call Proudhon, the father of anarchism a mere 'moderate anarchist, liberal but not libertarian'. For about a century libertarianism was exclusive a far left ideology including mostly anarchists and libertarian Marxists.

I suspect hard left and hard right meet up eventually... :)

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#76

Post by ModernMech »

shadowgovt wrote: post #51
fallingfrog wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Nobody aside from hardened sociopaths would do that.

How many hardened sociopaths can an anarchy sustain before it either collapses or becomes a mockery of its own self-direction and mutualism principles?

How many hardened sociopaths can any system take before the same? Look at America right now, with a narcissistic psychopath installed at the highest level of a supposed democracy.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#77

Post by vidarh »

browserface wrote: post #43

Anyone who has ever lived in a share house (or next to one) knows that without laws civilization will descend into absolute chaos and endless tit for tat revenge warfare. Try parenting with anarchist principles. At some point you run into limits. The point is, what imposes those limits? Physics, gravity, society or yourself? Ideally the limits you put on yourself should mean you never encounter (negatively or destruc…

Anarchism does not suggest no rules, but voluntary association. A flat share is a perfect example in that if ypu don't like the rules you find other people to share with - the rules are not imposed from above, but the result of negotiation and entered into voluntarily.

I'm not an anarchist though I share some of the views, but so much of the criticism of anarchism comes from misrepresenting anarchism as rejecting all organisation and rules.

Different forms of anarchism favor different levels of organisation, but part of the reason why there are so many variations is exactly that they all believe in the existence of systems of organization and enforcement of rules.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#78

Post by dwighttk »

prrls wrote: post #56
oxymoran wrote: post #11

“Anarchists are simply people who believe human beings are capable of behaving in a reasonable fashion without having to be forced to.” My anarchist sympathies want this to be true but this is a demonstrably false fairy tale. Just look at how we treat the planet and other living things in the presence of lawful order. Why would you assume that we would act righteously in the absence of law? It is painfully obvious th…

Anarchy doesn't mean "absence of law". Absence of law is anomie. One is often confused for the other, but there is a slight difference. Anarchy is more about you and your community having the autonomy to decide your own rules, not a central authority. I believe "autonomy" is the key word here, not "law".

The “nomy” in autonomy is law.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#79

Post by QuesnayJr »

koheripbal wrote: post #9

It's great to have people with diverse opinions - we are richer for that. ... but some people like Graeber, make the transition from spreading a mesage form of activism to violent and destructive activism. Not only does that alienate people, it's also findamentally wrong in a democracy. If you cannot convince people to vote differently with your words, then using violence and intimidation makes you a cancerous part o…

I don't think that's fair to Graeber, and I think he's a useless hack. I haven't seen any place where he advocates violence.

Re: Are you an anarchist? The answer may surprise you (2000)

#80

Post by elgfare »

This was interesting, I learned something.

The problem with anarchy is that everyone must be a good anarchist for it to work. Our current society is also dependent on most people being good anarchists, but it's also more resilient against non-anarchists.

Also, removing state power structures will not remove all power structures. There will still be people with lots of material or social capital providing them with power.

My hunch is that in absence of laws and power structures most people will miss a social contract and will miss people telling them what to do. Basically it's less taxing on our minds.

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