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The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

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131–140 of 209 posts

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#131
The problem with this "conversation intellectualism" it's all 30,000 feat drab cultural analysis of symptoms and no rigor to actually dissect causes. A good materialist approach might not charm at the moody cocktail party, but actually has explanatory power and proposes remedies.

If Ross Douthat thinks we've slowed technologically and modern technological gimmicks are trivial, well hahahaha, I agree, and he's just betrayed every conservative tenant.

- Space race was classic post-war consensus big goverment spending, and planning.

- Modern technologies, whether it's startups focusing on trains not plains, small powerplants not big ones, phones satellites and not wires in the ground, is entirely tech hacking around coordination failure. We've lost the ability to collaborate on the big stuff, and a lot of that is due precisely to conservationism weaponizing exiting structural failures in our governance model.

Art stagnation: well actually the popular art has been getting a lot better. Look at old music videos vs new ones, for example. Also R&B triumphing over rock as the foundation of pop means we get better rhythm and harmony, the twin pillars of syncretic music. But if high art is stagnent, well, that's clearly got to do with a the stagnation of the people on the top of the economic period with the leisure time. Nothing promotes changing tastes like changing audiences. Or blame underfunded schools and increasing in working hours for the non-rich.

Economic stagnation. Obviously wage growth decline is a proximate cause, not just a symptom (i.e. other factors might cause it or make it hard to fix, but if we could fix it it would help with the rest).

I could go on, but basically Douthat is just talking about symptoms to get along with the more literary coastal elites. It's shambolic. I'll take it more serious if he learns macroeconomics and becomes some sort of libertarian UBI-er.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#132
post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you think the starving medieval peasant had time to worry about "psychological suffering"?

I think you would be very interested in the rest of the document. That is very similar to the point that the author makes throughout. He suggests that spending more time on fulfilling our primitive needs of food water and shelter would result in a much more satisfying lifestyle and much higher quality of life.

Oh possibly, but it sounds too much like "keep the plebs busy so they don't have time to develop independent thinking".

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#133

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid aside, which is self inflicted, I highly disagree.

Funny, I agree with him because of things like Covid being self-inflicted. We're so unable, as a species, to avoid even known risks (yes, we've known about the risk of new Coronaviruses since SARS), prepare for them, or deal with them when they've actually occurred. Even now, a not insignificant part of the US population thinks Covid is a hoax. Or that climate change is a hoax. We're reaching a point where catastroph…

Respectfully, politicians you don't like gaining power isn't evidence of the system buckling.

The other issues aren't exactly unconcerning, but I think we have to acknowledge that this is a quite peaceful time. For most of history, what we call "unrest" was the status quo, and there were in addition wars of open territorial conquest which are nearly extinct today.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#134
post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Video games are indeed a form of media, but I think it is misleading to say they are art in the same sense as this author intends. Art and mass entertainment are only superficially similar, and most video games are made to entertain. Video games are (generally) consumable goods created to provide an amount of temporary pleasure. Good art is recognized not just by beauty or the skill required to create it, but by its…

You were downvoted, but I think you're right. I love video games. I spend a great deal of time playing them and I think they have a lot of oppurtunities other mediums can't match. But they don't move me the way even a mediocre novel or movie can. Video games are terrible at interpersonal relationships, for example. I find the more "interactive" relationships with NPCs the more shallow the relationshop, while "railroa…

> Video games are terrible at interpersonal relationships, for example. I find the more "interactive" relationships with NPCs the more shallow the relationshop, while "railroad" games tend to be better at it.

I think this is more of a money issue. in a highly linear game, every dollar is spent on content that every player will experience. if you have even three choices in the game that depend on each other meaningfully, you suddenly have eight possible endings and several additional plot paths on the way there. so you have to do several times as much development work to achieve the same level of polish, but each player will probably only experience one or two of the paths. they'll still only pay ~$60 for it.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#135
post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I may take a century to realized it, but I think you are right. Historians will look back and see America's car-centric culture as its height of extreme decadence and the pivotal point to its eventual decline. When you think about the trucks and SUVs that people drive around everywhere, the entire infrastructure dedicated to it, the health outcomes, etc.

I disagree. Cars are freedom. Freedom has upsides as well as downsides. Technological advances will continue to reduce the downsides, but the upsides are genuine and should not be thrown away. There's a reason why electric cars are a thing, as opposed to Americans just giving up cars and everyone using public transportation.

America should not give entirely up on cars, but reduce to a more balanced level where cars are not a necessity to live. Americans engineered many places to be car dependent when it didn't have to. Once something changes from a nice to have to a requirement, it becomes more like a drug, and the freedom is lost.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#136
post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re taking it too literally. It’s not about physical strength, it’s about cultural and societal strength and fortitude.

Exactly. It was in response to the “America is too comfortable” part of the comment.

Great quote, firm believer in it.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#137
post #74
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“Hard times create strong men. Strong men create good times. Good times create weak men. Weak men create hard times.”

The generation that grew during WWI and post it, gifted us with WWII. Hard times can create hard ressentful men who value low empathy and are eager to unleash hard times on others.

I agree with OP in some general sense in a closed political ecosystem because WWI/II didn't happen in a closed ecosystem. The extremes were just enough that it couldn't be easily contained within their perspective domains or countries. I wasn't aware of apt analogies before reading this thread but I just called it the Champion's Paradox, that with enough wins a fighter generally becomes less vigilant, "decadent" if you will, and I'd wager that the same holds true for larger domains as well given that all other things being equal.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is interesting to note that if you read Roman generals' letters from the fourth/fifth centuries AD, they seem like they have no idea that their civilization is in the late stages of decline, something totally easy for us to recognize millennia later. It's weird and uncanny, and kind of concerning given contemporary circumstances

Actually, that's reassuring. Virtually everyone agrees we are in a state of decline right now.

Strongly disagree we’re (the US) in decline at all.

If you think we are, you’d have to agree that the EU is post-decline. The UK, France (the list goes on) are all countries that are past their peak of power, influence and prestige.

But I would argue those EU countries haven’t declined in a negative sense. They’ve just evolved into something other than a global superpower.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#139
post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was a teen in the early 90s I listened to Tool, Nirvana, emerging Techno/Rave, Rap, as well as older rock like Pink Floyd, The Beatles, Jimmy Hendrix, and King Crimson. I could keep going but that's a sampling. In college I got more into electronic and obscure hip hop, both of which were quite new and innovative at the time. I lost all interest in pop because that was the late 90s when all pop went to crap. Al…

Anecdotal, but my parents (whoil like, Hendix/ Zep / Floyd) thought that Tool / Nirvana / et al sucked. Hard. Both my parents have pretty good formal music education; my dad was a high school band director for a while. They never said as much, but I am pretty sure that from their perspective most of what I listend to in high school in the early 90s was "absolute dog shit pop" and " objectively awful". To be fair, Coa…

They are not totally wrong, though I would debate Tool with them. Even if you don't like the style or content Tool is really well done musically. Grunge was innovative and creative but wasn't that musically "serious." I can see classically trained musicians hating it. Same goes for punk.

There can be musically well crafted music and there can be creative music. Occasionally you get music that is both. My point was that post-late-90s pop is neither. It's churned out repetitive trash that relies heavily on cheap hooks and bass lines to be catchy and inspire superficial emotion.

The slide of music toward mindless manufactured repetitive pop started in the 80s, but it was in the late 90s that it became really obvious.

Re: The Decadent Society: How We Became the Victims of Our Own Success

#140

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Covid aside, which is self inflicted, I highly disagree.

Funny, I agree with him because of things like Covid being self-inflicted. We're so unable, as a species, to avoid even known risks (yes, we've known about the risk of new Coronaviruses since SARS), prepare for them, or deal with them when they've actually occurred. Even now, a not insignificant part of the US population thinks Covid is a hoax. Or that climate change is a hoax. We're reaching a point where catastroph…

You may want to refresh your knowledge of American history. All those things you flag have always existed. It’s no different now.

History tends to get highly filtered and very little attention is paid to the incredibly bumpy road those times represent.

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