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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#461

Post by haidut »

darksaints wrote: post #409
lehi wrote: post #166

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A reminder that a CIA officer who oversaw, ordered, and participated in systematic detainee torture, then wrote the order to destroy the evidential tapes of said torture, was not only not punished or prosecuted but promoted to the current Director of the agency. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_CIA_interrogation_videota... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gina_Haspel

These are war crimes. Someone convicted of torture in the way that CIA officials have authorized could be sentenced to life imprisonment. The only problem is that the US is not a party to the ICC (probably because so many power holders are guilty of war crimes), so we do not pursue war crime trials. I would like to see a concerted effort to document these crimes, issue warrants for arrest, and have customs officials…

User @jaywalk said you live in a fantasy but it is actually an understatement! How come you have never heard of the "American Service-Members' Protection Act", which Bush signed into law SPECIFICALLY for de-facto preventing ICC from ever trying a US citizen for war crimes???

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

https://www.wearethemighty.com/us-can-invade-the-hague

"...In 2002, then-President George W. Bush signed the American Service-Members' Protection Act into law, authorizing the use of military force to free its citizens from incarceration and trial by the International Criminal Court. The act, dubbed the "Hague Invasion Act" for the name of the city in the Netherlands where the ICC holds prisoners, allows the President to use the American military to free its service members or those of any allied country who might be captured for trial there. More menacingly for potential U.S. allies, the act allows the United States to end military assistance for signatory countries to the ICC treaty, unless they agree not to extradite American citizens to The Hague."

That law explicitly authorizes the US military to INVADE the Netherlands and attack the ICC in order to free a US citizen on trial there. Netherlands is a NATO member, just like the US!! Not to mention a party to a number of other non-aggression pacts the US has with most Western European countries. That law Bush pushed for and signed makes the entire NATO idea a freaking joke. No country is safe if it ever dares to arrest US military members, no matter how horrible the war crimes committed by them. As they say in the commercials "but wait, there is more!" There are also multiple secret executive actions and DOJ "legal opinions" accompanying that fascist/evil law and the rumor is those secret amendments authorize covert LETHAL action by US special forces against foreign government officials (or any other foreign individual for that matter) working towards bringing a US citizen to trial at the ICC in Hague.

So, I would be thrilled to know what customs officials you have in mind that would be willing to get assassinated (covertly) for doing ANYTHING that can be construed by the US as aiding/abetting the capture and bringing a US citizen to ICC for a war crime trial. Even if you find such kamikazes, no country would dare issue orders authorizing its own officials to perform such acts against US military personnel.

So, no offense, but what world exactly are you living in!?!?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#462

Post by haidut »

jaywalk wrote: post #414
darksaints wrote: post #409

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These are war crimes. Someone convicted of torture in the way that CIA officials have authorized could be sentenced to life imprisonment. The only problem is that the US is not a party to the ICC (probably because so many power holders are guilty of war crimes), so we do not pursue war crime trials. I would like to see a concerted effort to document these crimes, issue warrants for arrest, and have customs officials…

That's a nice fantasy you've got there. I'd love to see some EU nation try to kidnap a prominent US citizen, but it'll never happen because the consequences would be severe.

The consequences would not be simply severe. There is an actual law passed by US in 2002 authorizing military action against ANY country (including NATO members!) working to bring US citizens to the Hague for a trial at ICC. And yes, that law explicitly allows invading the Netherlands and attacking ICC if needed in order to prevent war crime trials against US citizens. To make matters worse, there are rumored secret extensions (by executive action) of that law allowing LETHAL action against ANY individual(s) (as opposed to countries) who work towards getting a US citizen to trial at the ICC. See my comment in response to the use who you said was living in a fantasy world.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Service-Members%27_Pr...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#463

Post by chaboud »

nescoiquid wrote: post #438
furyg3 wrote: post #387

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sorry but I disagree (partially). Where I agree is that covert agents operating abroad are by-definition criminals. Foreign governments don't give permission for spies to be present, and they break all sorts of their nations host laws while there. Morally this is questionable... if you believe that 'all men' have 'certain unalienable rights' then surely those should apply to how you treat all humans on earth and not…

At a tangent to your (marvelous) response: > But what about domestic terrorism, or important exceptions? No problem! Get a warrant. I've heard about accounts of police investigations being aided with access to the mass surveillance data (through the FBI, I believe). It never goes to a FISA court, and the police use the information to develop a pretext for a warrant. So even with a warrant, the power may still be unch…

The practice of obtaining warrants with artificial but believable evidentiary basis to conceal the illicit means by which the basis was actually obtained is called "parallel construction", and the intentional practice or facilitation of it should be a felony with a maximum penalty of imprisonment of up to 50 years (2.5x evidence tampering, and I'd be fine with a mandatory minimum sentence of 10 years). It is a heinous perversion of the public trust, knowingly undertaken by unchecked law enforcement personnel to wilfully conceal unconstitutional acts. Parallel construction is a stain upon the very fabric of our nation... Or, you know, business as usual.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_construction

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#465

Post by strombye »

fareesh wrote: post #341

In operation crossfire hurricane, the FBI doctored an email and used its contents as part of an effort to get a FISA warrant to spy on a member of the incoming administration. This gave them access to listen to conversations of anyone 2 levels of connection away from the target. They also withheld exculpatory evidence at the time of requesting the warrant, and relied on a fictional document paid for by the opposing p…

This is the writing of a partisan hack. The Trump campaign was and is so obviously dirty up to its eyeballs that it’s absurd on the face of it to claim that illegal spying is the genesis of those investigations, especially given that the administration has gone to great lengths to muddy the waters in all these matters, pushing the exact talking points you now repeat. It makes me sick.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#466

Post by AndrewUnmuted »

mattacular wrote: post #456
jaywalk wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And you could do the same with CNN and MSNBC. Don't single out one source, they're all peddling fear just in different ways.

I don't really disagree but I will single out Fox News because it's completely valid to do so. They are a much more blatant offender than any other outlet and essentially wrote the playbook on fear-mongering for political gain in this country. It's silly to deny the extent of their influence on the media landscape in your desire to seem equitable.

Fox News did indeed set us on that path initially, but it's also silly to deny the extent of the rest of the networks' buy-in into this playbook.

Fox News' use of the "FOX NEWS ALERT" interruptions and the fear mongering were quickly replicated by all the other major cable networks in an attempt to compete. All of the networks were complicit in selling us into war with lies,

I think it's really more silly and uninformed to single out Fox News, given the current media ecology and political climate. Today's CNN and MSNBC will do things that are simply treacherous, making Fox News look tame by comparison. We're in a new era now.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#467

Post by peteretep »

entropicdrifter wrote: post #439
save_ferris wrote: post #424

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They created those laws, not the NSA, not the CIA, they could choose as easily to remove them. But it is too useful for them. This is true, but it's not the entire truth either. Most congressmen don't have access to the really sensitive intelligence that comes from these surveillance operations, so it can't be that useful to many of them. A legislator's primary goal is to get reelected, and working to remove powerf…

>Remember, there's an incredible amount of money changing hands in the military-industrial complex, and money plays a huge role in winning elections. This, to me, is the heart of the issue. American politics are fundamentally corrupted by campaign financing

> This, to me, is the heart of the issue. American politics are fundamentally corrupted by campaign financing

British politics is not; the scale of our financial political scandals would make a DC lobbyist giggle at the quaintness of it. This is also true of the other Five Eyes, and yet all of them are trying to be just as aggressive as each other, there’s just a difference in scale of the parent country.

I’m not arguing for or against anything here, just noting that intelligence agencies in similar countries which aren’t beset by campaign finance woes are doing exactly the same thing.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#468

Post by peteretep »

throwaway0a5e wrote: post #425
DaiPlusPlus wrote: post #413

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The CIA has deep ties to the American upper classes That’s hardly unique to the US. Other nations’ intelligence agencies tend to attract the aristocracy, e.g. all the Oxbridge alum at MI6/GCHQ.

Joining the intelligence services was basically the way the British upper class avoided combat service in ww2

You can level a lot of shit at the British upper classes, but being war-shy isn’t one of them. Until about 50 years ago, the entirety of the officer corps was picked from the gentry, and it’s not _that_ different today. Junior officers are just as much cannon fodder as other ranks.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#469

Post by mikewarot »

Prediction: In the next few days, the NSA/FBI use their trove of data to track down all of Antifa, and make arrests. It lets the Democrats off the hook, lets Trump say "law and order", lets the NSA keep it's toys, and the risk of civil war drops a bit, increasing National Security.

They could even frame Iran or North Korea in the process. Bonus points for the Military Industrial Complex.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#470

Post by somesortofsystm »

lawnchair_larry wrote: post #432
Gibbon1 wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Far as I understand the first director the FBI J. Edgar Hoover had blackmail on a lot of federal politicians. Which is why he left his position feet first. When Hoover died Nixon replaced him with someone with no previous ties to the agency. The CIA has deep ties to the American upper classes. And probably serves their interests over the states. Or their own interests. Aldrich Ames was living well beyond is means for…

No, they actually serve the country and the government. This conspiracy theory has no basis. Ames was a double agent, not a great example.

Where's the evidence the CIA serves the country and government? There's not a lot of evidence that it is effective at protecting the American people from anything.

There is a lot of evidence that the CIA is doing whatever it can to ensure that the %1 of American society get their way with the world, however. That's not the same as 'serving country and government', by any stretch of the imagination.

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