Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

341–350 of 493 posts

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#341

Post by fareesh »

In operation crossfire hurricane, the FBI doctored an email and used its contents as part of an effort to get a FISA warrant to spy on a member of the incoming administration. This gave them access to listen to conversations of anyone 2 levels of connection away from the target.

They also withheld exculpatory evidence at the time of requesting the warrant, and relied on a fictional document paid for by the opposing political party.

This was used as a basis to conduct a 2 year long investigation into collusion between the campaign and the Russian government, which resulted in the conviction of Michael Cohen for tax evasion and perjury, and Paul Manafort for tax fraud, bank fraud and conspiracy all of which predated the campaign and had nothing to do with it.

Not only are these agencies spying based on fabricated evidence, they are using the spying to kick off independent investigations, each of which unveil various unrelated crimes, which they then prosecute.

The whole system is rotten to its core.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#342

Post by AndrewBissell »

tialaramex wrote: post #338
AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

Huge parts of these agencies' activities have been moved off the books or to private entities. It's not as simple a matter as just cutting off their funding anymore.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#343

Post by autisticcurio »

fareesh wrote: post #341

In operation crossfire hurricane, the FBI doctored an email and used its contents as part of an effort to get a FISA warrant to spy on a member of the incoming administration. This gave them access to listen to conversations of anyone 2 levels of connection away from the target. They also withheld exculpatory evidence at the time of requesting the warrant, and relied on a fictional document paid for by the opposing p…

Well the security services in the UK, will enter your house and wipe your backups and handdrives whilst you are on holiday and there is nothing you can do about it. They also carry out secret operations on primary school kids phishing for information, speaking from experience and hindsight. Nothing is off limits.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#344

Post by [deleted] »

AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

[deleted]

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#345

Post by hedgedoops2 »

runawaybottle wrote: post #331
AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

Few things can stand up against the ‘national security’ argument in America (maybe even nothing ). A court ruling like this will be overturned in a heartbeat with any kind of terrorist attack. Don’t count out the current domestic unrest to lead to legislation that buffs up these agencies going forward if the Republicans win again.

There is a Decemberists refrain about the reaction to 9/11, the war on terror: "Because America can, and America can't say no." Or at least, I thought it stood for that, at the time.

Part of a solution may be to introduce a "principle of proportionality" like [1] (if one does not already exist), and to aggressively remove the bugs in the US judicial system that prevent ordinary courts from examining the spies, the military and the executive. Like the state secrets privilege [2]. Then the system can prevent itself from backsliding during crises.

Laws are no good if courts take 10 years or more to figure out whether they have jurisdiction over, or are able to subpoena evidence relating to, crass, publicly known, obviously illegal, civil rights violations. If courts take too long, standards shift, are forgotten, then abolished. The normative power of the facts.

Jewel vs NSA has taken 10 years and has gotten nowhere.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportionality_(law)#European...

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_secrets_privilege

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#346

Post by salawat »

r00fus wrote: post #129
xxpor wrote: post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>But courts don't pass laws, they interpret them. This is a common misconception. Courts don't pass statutes , but they certainly create law. Nearly every ruling from any sort of appeals court answers a question of law which is then binding on everyone under the jurisdiction of said court. This is the essential difference between a common law and civil law system. There are still rulings in the US that cite old Engli…

Only in a country with jurisprudence. Not all countries hold that court decisions require following court decisions to respect previous decisions (ie, legal precedent).

Stare decisis isn't a hill our legal system is 100% committed to dying on either. Precedent can be vacated as public sentiment changes.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#347

Post by newswasboring »

tialaramex wrote: post #338
AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

>and if they aren't why would they exist at all?

Reminds me of Lisa simpsons rock which protects against tigers.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#348

Post by runawaybottle »

hedgedoops2 wrote: post #345
runawaybottle wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Few things can stand up against the ‘national security’ argument in America (maybe even nothing ). A court ruling like this will be overturned in a heartbeat with any kind of terrorist attack. Don’t count out the current domestic unrest to lead to legislation that buffs up these agencies going forward if the Republicans win again.

There is a Decemberists refrain about the reaction to 9/11, the war on terror: "Because America can, and America can't say no." Or at least, I thought it stood for that, at the time. Part of a solution may be to introduce a "principle of proportionality" like [1] (if one does not already exist), and to aggressively remove the bugs in the US judicial system that prevent ordinary courts from examining the spies, the mi…

The problem is any contemporaneous litigation on any of these programs is always thwarted with ‘endangering ongoing investigations’ excuses.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#349

Post by salawat »

triceratops wrote: post #248
yyyk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no choice in a democracy but to have something like the pardon power. The reason is that we need protection also from the power of judicial branch, which is abusable like any branch with power. Not having a pardon power allows bad judges to throw anyone they don't like into jail with no recourse by anyone. In a democracy, all branches are checked by the others, and this is a necessary check on the judicial br…

> There's no choice in a democracy but to have something like the pardon power. Not necessarily. IIUC the American President's pardon power is based on the British monarch's pardon power. The role of President was conceived (consciously or unconsciously) as an elected, non-hereditary monarch. He had many of the same powers - veto, commander of the military. > Not having a pardon power allows bad judges to throw anyon…

Actually, it's merely a prerogative granted via holding the role of the Chief Executive. You get discretion to enforce or grant amnesty etc, because it's your job to set the priorities.

The pardon power, however, was never traditionally treated lightly, as it's use practically guaranteed you'd be right ticking off a potentially very large swathe of the populace by upsetting the smooth operation of the other branches. It was a check, undoubtedly, but one best used only wisely if for no other reason than to reassure the populace there was a commitment to faithfully executing the laws of the land, rather than everyone being at the mercy of a capricious and unstable tyrant/nepotist/other type of person you wouldn't want to see in the highest position of authority in the country.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#350

Post by culturestate »

AndrewBissell wrote: post #342
tialaramex wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

Huge parts of these agencies' activities have been moved off the books or to private entities. It's not as simple a matter as just cutting off their funding anymore.

The off-the-books money that the CIA uses to pay those shady Raytheon subsidiaries doesn't appear out of thin air. It may be several layers removed and cycled through a few South American laundromats, but its genesis is always the U.S. Treasury.
Post reply on HN