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Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

press-pubs.uchicago.edu

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Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#291

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, the protests are 'mostly peaceful' and any violence is due to reactionaries.

I don't think anyone is claiming the protests are 100% peaceful. The question, then, is how much violence occurs relative to total protest activity? If fewer than 50% of protestors engage in violence, wouldn't it then be accurate to describe the protest as 'mostly peaceful'?

> I don't think anyone is claiming the protests are 100% peaceful.

Some people certainly are, I've heard a few people who attended the riots in Seattle claim the police were the only ones rioting. They're very adamant about that 'only' and any evidence to the contrary is met with "well he's a cop in disguise." It's a case of No True Protestor.

It's very tiresome when people demand you believe their transparent bullshit.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#292
post #78

It's just so sad. The biggest one lately for me has been watching the riots which are happening all over the US. The really crazy thing is that all of these things are livestreamed usually by 10s of people in every city, who are standing a few feet from the people burning buildings and attacking people. You can virtually attend all of these things from your office. To watch buildings burning, people chanting that the…

It's really disheartening. Until recently I lived in Capitol Hill, Seattle, 4 or 5 blocks away from CHAZ/CHOP. I saw with my own eyes what was happening. I saw with my own eyes buildings get set on fire multiple times within a block of my apartment. I saw with my own eyes the riots, looting, violence, nightly political shows of force. Just two days ago they were molotov cocktailing a police precinct. There's even vid…

Your profile is 4 months old, right around when the riots started in Minneapolis. You have 0 karma points. Several of your comments are dead/flagged. I'm wondering if you're some kind of political shill.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#293
This reminds me of the 99pi podcast episode that just re-aired about how the American post office was first set up mostly to share news papers between colonies and build an informed connected population https://99percentinvisible.org/episode/the-revolutionary-pos...

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#294
post #213

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. Honestly, I think the standards you seem to be setting for yourself are too high. As far as I know, none of us are God, so it is completely impossible for us to know what's going on in the world. > according to a handful of corporations whose job it is to turn the smallest amount of factual raw material int…

Not just about corporations turning the news into "entertaining spectacle". Its scary from a climate change perspective that in my country (Australia), that people invested in the mining and fossil fuel industries are also investing in TV.

The NYTimes definitely prints stuff that is factual. A lot of the entertaining stuff is factual. It just depends on your goals. For example, if you read NYTimes every day since March, you'd sell at the bottom of the fastest stock market recovery in history.

Things can be factual and yet point you in the 200% wrong direction. And since that direction, for the average person, really means, on average, making tons of money, the average news source's pessimism (the actual continuity between 1807 and now) is going to... lose you a ton of money.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#296
The problem with this line of thinking isn't that it's wrong. I could complain about the media all day.

The problem is that main stream establishment media: NYTimes, APNews, The Guardian, Reuters, etc are the best we have.

The people that complain about the media are the people that seek out alternative media. Alternative media is infinity more misleading and misinformed.

Thomas Jefferson surely didn't mean that you should turn to alternative media like Twitter and YouTube for your news.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#297

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

What if it was always impossible, and we're just now finally realizing it? In that case this may be a positive development. But we're just at the beginning of learning how to adapt to it.

> we're just now finally realizing it

We're all commenting on a post from 1807 saying the same thing. Maybe it was always impossible, but we think that people used to not realize it. If that's the case, we're definitely not at the beginning and it doesn't bode particularly well.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#298

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

> There is not a technical solution to any of this.

I don't quite agree with that. In general, our best means of knowing with reasonable confidence whether some event being reported on is true is our confidence in the person telling us of the event. If it's someone we know personally, that's best. In a world of billions of people, that's not possible for most world events, so we can think of trust as being transitive. I can put more confidence in something that's reported by someone who is personally vouched for by a friend of mine, than something that's three steps removed, and so on.

The trouble is that our human brains are incapable of understanding social networks with more than a hundred or so people (i.e. Dunbar's number) and even those we have very imperfect understanding of. Computers don't have that limitation. Supposing you have a directed graph of every human who is willing to publicly vouch for the credibility of some other human, you can run something like PageRank on that to determine the degree to which you should trust some random reporter.

Better yet would be something like PageRank, but modified to handle anti-endorsements as well. There are ways to handle distrust in PageRank-like systems, but that's a little outside the scope of the point I'm trying to make.

Of course, collecting this directed graph of endorsements is outside the ability of a normal human, but sites like Facebook and LinkedIn have something like it. If they wanted to re-use that to create a news filtering service they probably could. On the other hand, the rest of us users would have no particular reason to believe they don't have their thumb on the scale, promoting news that serves their interests, or that they were paid to promote. So, I wouldn't say what I'm suggesting is purely a "technical solution", there are social and cultural aspects to it as well, but the one aspect of the problem -- that are human brains can't cope with large social networks -- is one that we can use computers to solve, if we have the right data.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#299

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't accept your premise that books are not factual and news media is more/entirely factual. Do you have any evidence on that? The evidence I've got generally sways towards well-regarded non-fiction book authors generally having more expertise in the area they write about than well-regarded journalists. This also makes intuitive sense - journalists often write about many subjects and act as second-hand sources, wh…

With regard to the first point, I meant those particular religious texts you cited. I'm a huge fan of nonfiction books in general. When I open NYT, Politico, and WaPo I see: > Justice Dept. Plans to File Antitrust Charges Against Google in Coming Weeks > Justice Department expected to file antitrust suit against Google > The Justice Department could file a lawsuit against Google this month, overriding skepticism from…

Ah, yup, on the first point I misunderstood what you meant. Apologies for reading your comment in a poorer light than it was.

We agree in some broad strokes, but seem to disagree on other points.

The original comment I wrote was contesting the idea that averaging multiple points of view necessarily mean that you're getting closer to the truth. It can mean that, but it doesn't have to if there's a shared underlying bias.

I think we'd also disagree on the value of being informed about current things similar to your example of a google anti-trust suit. I would personally expect that reading the average news article on it does not make me meaningfully more informed (since journalists digest the original court filing or whatever prompted it into a piece devoid of value in my experience).

I'd say that you get more value out of understanding the broader context: how anti-trust suits in the US generally go. In all probability, in 4 months that headline will be completely irrelevant and nothing will have happened. It's more likely that it's a clickbait bit of news churn based on a fragment of truth than that it's both true, and the implication that it's meaningful and important news for us to know is also true.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#300
post #298

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

> There is not a technical solution to any of this. I don't quite agree with that. In general, our best means of knowing with reasonable confidence whether some event being reported on is true is our confidence in the person telling us of the event. If it's someone we know personally, that's best. In a world of billions of people, that's not possible for most world events, so we can think of trust as being transitive…

Wouldn't this directed graph endorsement approach just devolve into more followers = more endorsements? There's nothing built into the system to ensure quality whatsoever.
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