Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807) • Hacker News Board

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#211

Post by Bud » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:05 PM UTC

marcosdumay wrote: post #161

jariel wrote: post #135

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Handy tip: to get the politics of a nation, read the news on it by some paper outside the nation. So reading the BBC for US news gives you something fairly readable.

What I see is that foreign news have no idea of what is happening in my country, they all just repeat some superficial and normally wrong pieces. At the same time, domestic media is all lying through their teeth. With some work one can disecate the news, separate what can't possibly be lies (because it would lead to problems), and reassembly something into an overall picture. (Who has the time for all this?) But one…

The Guardian actually does a very fine job covering US news.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#212

Post by KoftaBob » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:07 PM UTC

minimuffins wrote: post #117

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

The vast vast majority of news isn't actionable in our daily lives, at all. At the core of it, we read the news to satisfy our human curiosity.

Once I came to realize this, it was like a weight was lifted off me. For the last few months, I've only been reading news regarding specific topics I'm genuinely interested in (new gadgets, tech/startups in general, new skyscraper projects, etc).

This way, it's like I'm reading books about my interests that were written very very recently. General news seems to add a net negative to my life with very little upside, so I just stopped reading it.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#213

Post by ardy42 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:11 PM UTC

minimuffins wrote: post #117

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

> The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating.

Honestly, I think the standards you seem to be setting for yourself are too high. As far as I know, none of us are God, so it is completely impossible for us to know what's going on in the world.

> according to a handful of corporations whose job it is to turn the smallest amount of factual raw material into maximally entertaining spectacle.

Which ones are you referring to, specifically? While there are certainly some companies that just want to turn the news into "entertaining spectacle," I think it's over-cynical to say they all do. I try to focus on the ones that seem to feel they have a duty to report on the news and columnists who seem to feel they have something important to say (and whose columns are interesting enough that that may actually be true).

> There is not a technical solution to any of this. "Decentralization" into forums and social media and whatnot is not a solution. At best it's a good way for some of us to discuss the problem among ourselves as it unfolds. Decentralization is better termed "de-professionalization." The institutions which used to, at the very least, dedicate serious resources to going out into the world and gathering facts no longer function properly or just don't exist.

I totally agree with you here about de-professionalization, but I'm less dejected about traditional news gathering institutions. They're definitely on the decline, but they're not dead yet. Some are still soldiering on and functioning reasonably well, especially if you're interested in national/international news or live in a major city.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#214

Post by jariel » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

Bud wrote: post #211

marcosdumay wrote: post #161

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What I see is that foreign news have no idea of what is happening in my country, they all just repeat some superficial and normally wrong pieces. At the same time, domestic media is all lying through their teeth. With some work one can disecate the news, separate what can't possibly be lies (because it would lead to problems), and reassembly something into an overall picture. (Who has the time for all this?) But one…

The Guardian actually does a very fine job covering US news.

The Guardian is super biased and narrative driven - most outlets in the UK are. The BBC less so, and oddly, the FT's coverage tends to be very demure.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#215

Post by waterheater » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:26 PM UTC

Loughla wrote: post #94

antipaul wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We have a hard time talking to each other these days (eg, Republicans vs Democrats in US). So I also feel that education, specifically a liberal arts foundation, could broaden people’s minds so that we’re not just shouting at each other, but can actually converse as somewhat rational beings.

But this boils down to initially defining the "purpose" of education. The US can't even agree on what the purpose of education is. Many see it as you do - broaden minds and encourage thinking. Many others see it as life-skills 'training' designed to teach adult survival skills. Still others think education should point specifically, and directly to work, or, in other words, be 'job-skills' based. We don't even have a…

Just the USA? Humanity has differences on the purposes of education. For example, should education only be for men? In some parts of the world, yes.

>The whole thing is a mess.

Then let's use different terms to refer to the reality of these differences. Here's a first crack:

Educating includes broadening minds and encouraging thinking.

Training includes the dictation of knowledge and application of specific skills.

Learning "life-skills" is a specific but important part of training.

All educating includes training, but not all training includes education.

The terms "education" and "training" are often conflated and should not be.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#216

Post by phobosanomaly » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:27 PM UTC

icelancer wrote: post #182

minimuffins wrote: post #117

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

>> The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. Is it? Why? Does it meaningfully change your life to know what's going on everywhere from the mundane to the impactful? Our lives are lived in the present, locally. You interact with people in your community thousands of times more than people you read about thousands of miles away. Be where your feet are.

I personally view it as a duty. Part of being a citizen in a (kind of) functioning democracy is understanding the nuances of the stuff that is screwed up around you to the best of your ability so that when the time comes to vote or have a meaningful discussion with others around you, you can be a voice of reason. Ignoring the world around them is how so many Americans still think Iraq had something to do with 9/11. I may not know everything, but I'm trying and putting an honest effort into learning as much as I can every single day. Reading NYT, WaPo, etc. is my version of putting an American flag out front, or a Support the Troops sticker on my car, or singing the National Anthem or whatever people do to feel like they're doing their part.

That being said, your approach is probably a lot healthier in the long-run. I always get really depressed after reading the papers. Usually I just call a buddy after and we both rant about things and afterwards everyone feels ok.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#217

Post by phobosanomaly » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

techslave wrote: post #193

godzillabrennus wrote: post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here is what goes on in a day: 1.) Bad things 2.) Good things 3.) Things that might be both bad and good Thankfully we live in the safest period of human history. Thankfully many smart people want to focus their time on doing good things.

yeah well you’re not being persecuted. for many it may as well be the 12th century or whatever

Agreed. Probably aren't too many Yemenis on here. Part of reading the news is to see how bad it really is for some people, and drum up ideas for how you can help them in your own way (donating to a public interest group, volunteering, raising awareness, etc).

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#218

Post by toss1 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:30 PM UTC

Modern Analog in USA: those watching the most politically oriented sources, Fox & MSNBC are actually WORSE informed than those who watch no news at all.[1]

And those who watch actual sources (in the case of this study, the Sunday AM interview shows) are best informed.

[1] http://publicmind.fdu.edu/2012/confirmed/

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#219

Post by andreilys » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:31 PM UTC

ardy42 wrote: post #213

minimuffins wrote: post #117

The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. I spend probably an hour a day reading headlines from major outlets with a bunch of different political alignments, and to be honest, I don't really know why I even do it. By the end of it, all I really have is a vague silhouette of a picture of what might have happened, according to a handful of corporations…

> The feeling that it's just completely impossible to know what's going on in the world is really debilitating. Honestly, I think the standards you seem to be setting for yourself are too high. As far as I know, none of us are God, so it is completely impossible for us to know what's going on in the world. > according to a handful of corporations whose job it is to turn the smallest amount of factual raw material int…

” I try to focus on the ones that seem to feel they have a duty to report on the news”

Can you share an example? I have trouble coming up with any which aren’t burdened with profit or idealogical motives.

Re: Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper (1807)

#220

Post by tomatotomato37 » Thu, Sep 03, 2020, 9:32 PM UTC

tdfx wrote: post #156

stevula wrote: post #153

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That does not match my experience at all with the many peaceful protests in SF lately. Your sources may be cherry-picking to push a certain political narrative.

I'm genuinely happy that SF is seeing peaceful protests, but I spent 2 weeks driving through National Guard checkpoints in my city due to violent unrest, and I'm aware of at least 5 other cities who were similarly affected. Minimizing the presence of violence on either side is wrong. The "few bad apples" narrative doesn't work for cops or protesters, or we wouldn't be seeing what we're seeing.

The complete disregard for locality and generalizations over an entire continent-sized country don't help either. It's like if a report on the Belarus election situation was used to insist the entirety of the EU was collapsing, while at the same time a report over protests in, I dunno, Sweden was used to show that everything in Belarus is peaceful.