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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#391

Post by mattacular »

sk5t wrote: post #353
tialaramex wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They're spooks. This is what they're for. The constraints are at best just theatre, obviously their adversaries aren't going to obey these rules, and they know that so if they are to be effective (and if they aren't why would they exist at all?) they will also disobey these rules. The purpose of such rules in practice is to help the American public to sleep at night despite having tacitly authorised a nightmare. You…

> But as much as they enjoy bluster, Americans are afraid [...] Are Americans really afraid? Or is it that Americans feel comfort in having the meanest dog on the block, even if that dog sometimes nips its master?

If you have a family member that watches Fox News and then check some of their primetime programming out, you'll see both the fear and where that fear comes from.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#392

Post by kelnos »

shalmanese wrote: post #94
hinkley wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

When I was young and dreamed of being a rock star^W^W entrepreneur I used to pay more attention to contract law. It seems like everywhere from roommate, landlord, business, or partnership contracts, we seem to write down rules but not consequences or penalties. Oh you were supposed to pay rent or this invoice, but I can't make you do it? What's the point of contracts? The time I owned property with someone, I at leas…

The mark of a civil society is laws without punishments. Low trust societies have to build in enforcement mechanisms for everything because if you don't, someone will cheat you for the slightest advantage and life inside them is punishingly inefficient. High trust societies rely on people to do the right thing out of a sense of civic pride, decency, group cohesion or some other regulating force. Look at sports for ex…

> Well, outside of professional leagues, really nothing except people won't want to play with you.

That's not true at all. In high school I was a soccer referee, for a recreational league. If you broke the rules of the game, I stopped play and the other team got a free kick. If you did something violent or egregiously dangerous, you got a warning or got ejected from the game. The league had policies around ejections; accumulate too many of them in a short time and you were kicked out of the league, usually permanently.

I guess you can reduce that down to "people won't want to play with you", but that's a pretty significant consequence if it's a sport you enjoy playing.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#393

Post by alex_duf »

Ansil849 wrote: post #291

This question is meant in good faith, not to be facetious but out of a genuine lack of understanding: now what? If this action was ruled illegal, then someone in the chain of command ordered this illegal action - in other words did something illegal. Is the individual who ordered the illegal action going to be disciplined? Is anyone?

Unless news outlets run the story and outrage the public about how violating the constitution should have repercussions, nothing will happen.

But given how grim the news landscape looks like in the USA, I'm not very hopeful.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#394

Post by TheOtherHobbes »

Ansil849 wrote: post #294
alfiedotwtf wrote: post #293

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lol, of course nobody will be disciplined

Cynicism aside, I genuinely don't understand how the legal system works where an action may be found illegal - with no actual penalties despite organizations and persons having committed that action.

Law is what should happen, politics is what does happen.

A superficial look at how crimes are processed should make it obvious that people are in no sense "equal before the law."

Someone poor and black is going to have a much harder time of it than someone rich, white, and politically orthodox. Even more so if they're working for one of the TLAs.

The reality is the latter groups get the benefit of a literal stay-out-of-jail card labelled "national interest", while the former are seen as a threat to it.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#395

Post by dependenttypes »

mLuby wrote: post #102
dn3500 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what I don't get? Why is Edward Snowden, who exposed these crimes, being treated like a criminal?

He knowingly and clearly broke laws by stealing and disclosing classified information. I think he was ethically correct to do so, and his act qualified as civil disobedience, but that's why the US government is after him.

You can't steal data unless if you delete the original along with any backups in the process.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#396

Post by raxxorrax »

pulse7 wrote: post #389
maeln wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are not toothless, they put them in those positions of power and do so gladly. Remember that Snowden always said he was ready to come back to the U.S and be trialled, as long as the trial wouldn't be a secret trial. Those who created the laws for those secret trial where not the CIA or the NSA, it was politician. The same way they made it so that it is forbidden to talk about the programs of certain agencies, ev…

Trials are secret because they don't want to reveal further secrets. On the other hand you hear people saying: "If you are doing everything right, you have nothing to hide."

The difference is that in a democracy you should be responsible for the actions of government and you need to be able to audit governmental action, not the other way around.

I am surprised that they really have zero cases where mass surveillance helped. I would have thought they would make some up at least, but that got probably too hot.

Of course there is a massive amount of secret cases where it did help, but they just cannot tell you about...

It is a bad excuse that can be used to justify anything. Instead the case for secrecy needs justification.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#397

Post by kelnos »

_8j50 wrote: post #245
sjy wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Government officials do face charges when they commit crimes such as abuse of public office. A court decision on the interpretation of the Constitution is not a “ruling that a crime was committed.” Drawing on your doctor analogy, it’s more like new evidence showing that a particular treatment is not as safe as previously believed. It doesn’t necessarily follow that the doctor is criminally or civilly liable for provi…

You misunderstand, I meant a court ruling that an official intentionally violated rights of citizens, that is the crime. Constitutionality of something can be established, intentionap disregard of the constitution or a court ruling regarding constitutional matters is the proposed crime I am talking about.

That's reasonable, but I think you underestimate the difficulty in proving malicious intent.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#398

Post by reportgunner »

ncmncm wrote: post #261
est31 wrote: post #225

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Yeah but Gina had unanimous support by Democrats, Republicans, and the entire CIA to become the Director of the CIA. * 109 generals oppose her nomination in a letter: https://www.humanrightsfirst.org/sites/default/files/RMLSena... * yes, there were some democrats who voted in her favour, but there were republicans too who voted against her. Overall though, the overwhelming majority democrats did vote against her. F…

Thank you, I had not seen the letter before. It is chilling that anyone voted for her after seeing it.

Perhaps they were afraid that they would be tortured.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#399

Post by Gibbon1 »

maeln wrote: post #355
AnonHP wrote: post #325

Whenever I see such news and then look around at what they’ve been doing and continue to do (revealed sometimes in congressional hearings), it seems to me that the executive and the legislature are truly toothless in the face of these three-letter agencies. Nothing they say or put forth as law will be obeyed. So why even have laws then? Then you also have top representatives from these agencies lying outright in publ…

They are not toothless, they put them in those positions of power and do so gladly. Remember that Snowden always said he was ready to come back to the U.S and be trialled, as long as the trial wouldn't be a secret trial. Those who created the laws for those secret trial where not the CIA or the NSA, it was politician. The same way they made it so that it is forbidden to talk about the programs of certain agencies, ev…

Far as I understand the first director the FBI J. Edgar Hoover had blackmail on a lot of federal politicians. Which is why he left his position feet first. When Hoover died Nixon replaced him with someone with no previous ties to the agency.

The CIA has deep ties to the American upper classes. And probably serves their interests over the states. Or their own interests. Aldrich Ames was living well beyond is means for years. A good supposition is people at his level routinely trade intel to 'friendly' government an corporate interests.

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