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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#191

Post by ethagnawl »

stefan_ wrote: post #173
ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

The historical track record isn't good. Nobody bothered much with prosecuting nazis or nazi collaborators after WW2, Stasi spies after the reunion, party members after the soviet collapse, AT&T and others for collaborating with the NSA on warrantless surveillance (that was Bush) or the CIA torturers (that was Obama). "[N]othing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past … we must resist…

"During the early stages of the Iraq War, United States Army and _Central Intelligence Agency_ personnel committed a series of human rights violations against detainees in the Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq,[1] including physical and sexual abuse, torture, rape, sodomy, and murder.[2][3][4][5] The abuses came to public attention with the publication of photographs of the abuse by CBS News in _April 2004_."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abu_Ghraib_torture_and_prisone...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#192

Post by srtjstjsj »

AaronFriel wrote: post #144
ardy42 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

I don't think it would be unconstitutional ex-post-facto. Obergefell v. Hodges didn't define sex discrimination in marriage certificates unconstitutional after a certain date . It was always unconstitutional, and was recognized as such in their ruling. And yes, I would like to see, actually, qualified immunity removed and governments held liable for rights violations. Perhaps not prison time for the clerks - who were…

We already have that system. Congress can pay any reparations it decides.

You want a system where any judge or jury can decide that someone owes someone else a billion dollars based on past law? Until 4 years later when a judge or jury rules the other way and makes them pay it back?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#193

Post by srtjstjsj »

adventured wrote: post #75
downrightmike wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and do love building prisons.

> We can and do love building prisons. Not so much any longer. The US incarceration rate is at a 20 year low and keeps falling. We've been reducing the prison population for a decade now. For example the black male imprisonment rate began declining finally during the second year of George W Bush's Presidency. It has dropped by around 36% since the year 2001. The US incarceration rate began declining about the same ti…

That's an misleading stat. Incarceration trends are highly variable by state.

https://www.sentencingproject.org/the-facts/#detail?state1Op...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#194

Post by ksherlock »

_8j50 wrote: post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

In the Athens Democracy, the Graphe paranomon (their version of SCOTUS, sort of) could punish legislators that had proposed "unconstitutional" laws.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Graphe_paranomon

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#195

Post by srtjstjsj »

eesmith wrote: post #76
BeKindAndLearn wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Biden's promising to pardon all non-violent drug crimes, is he not? Though not historical, if it were to happen that could mark a turning point for our country. Though one could also use that same pardon power to avoid prosecution for domestic terrorists that support your agenda or crimes of election fraud. So I'm definitely on the side of revoking one person's power to override the entire judiciary for arbitrary rea…

I can't find mention of him making that specific promise of pardoning all non-violent drug crimes. I did find https://joebiden.com/justice/ saying: > Biden believes no one should be in jail because of cannabis use. As president, he will decriminalize cannabis use and automatically expunge prior convictions. And, he will support the legalization of cannabis for medical purposes, leave decisions regarding legalization…

He's talking about changing laws, which of course he can't literally do, but Presidents always claim to do and they do have a lot of influence over Congress.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#196

Post by srtjstjsj »

Alupis wrote: post #77
jgust wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

What, specifically, would Trump require a pardon for? Being unlikable to some of the country?

Hatch Act violations, for starters.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#197

Post by Zenbit_UX »

vvpan wrote: post #131

Pardon Snowden.

Hard to even pretend he did something wrong after this ruling. The government was proven to be acting illegally and likely also unconstitutionally, he had a moral imperative to alert the public.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#198

Post by ndesaulniers »

chard_slicks_ wrote: post #57
ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

Will Clapper's perjury ever be punished?

I wonder if Clapper established that you could lie before US Congress without consequence, or if there are earlier instances?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#199

Post by [deleted] »

srtjstjsj wrote: post #188
DennisP wrote: post #70

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems like the courts could make a distinction between "ok this was unclear" and "this was obvious, egregious and deserving of penalties." And while throwing Congress in jail seems unworkable, disqualifying members from reelection in egregious cases might be doable (though of course it would require a constitutional amendment).

> election Congress was elected. If they are doing a bad job, the voters can recall them. There's no need for lower officials to deal with them. If the majority of the voters are wrong, then your "democratic nations of laws" is dead.

[deleted]

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#200

Post by lifeformed »

jessaustin wrote: post #181
ihumanable wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You could still let the states run the elections and remove the Electoral College. All the redundancy with none of the downsides of the Electoral College.

In a simple majority system, a close result will entail a nationwide recount. With the Electoral College, recounts are only necessary at the state level. Smaller tasks are easier and faster.

Why is ease of recounting prioritized over fairness and accuracy?
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