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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

politico.com

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#171

Post by gnopgnip »

heimatau wrote: post #89
ardy42 wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. It's because it can't reasonably work like that. At a certain point, defining punishments is moot, because there's no highe…

> If the Constitution says "Congress shall make no law..." and Congress still makes a law, what are you going to do, throw Congress in jail? That's nonsense. Actually, it's nonsense to think anything to the contrary. Either our founding document matters as the backbone of our Laws or it doesn't. Your outlandish logic nullifies any power that the government may have over it's people. It nullifies the social contract.…

Then can the capitol hill police throw congress in jail anytime they decide a law congress made was illegal? No. There is a system of checks and balances to address unconstitutional laws, and to correct laws that are bad but not illegal.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#172

Post by downrightmike »

adventured wrote: post #75
downrightmike wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We can and do love building prisons.

> We can and do love building prisons. Not so much any longer. The US incarceration rate is at a 20 year low and keeps falling. We've been reducing the prison population for a decade now. For example the black male imprisonment rate began declining finally during the second year of George W Bush's Presidency. It has dropped by around 36% since the year 2001. The US incarceration rate began declining about the same ti…

So you're saying we have vacancy. Even better.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#173

Post by stefan_ »

ncmncm wrote: post #2

Now, when can we begin prosecuting the instigators? Presumably, after we have prosecuted those who ordered and participated in torture. (There is no statute of limitations on torture, is there?)

The historical track record isn't good. Nobody bothered much with prosecuting nazis or nazi collaborators after WW2, Stasi spies after the reunion, party members after the soviet collapse, AT&T and others for collaborating with the NSA on warrantless surveillance (that was Bush) or the CIA torturers (that was Obama).

"[N]othing will be gained by spending our time and energy laying blame for the past … we must resist the forces that divide us, and instead come together on behalf of our common future."

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#174

Post by refurb »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

I dove into the list of people pardoned by Clinton and I would say most were people who had either served their sentence (or most of it) and had demonstrated true rehabilitation.

The pardon wiped the slates clean for them. That seems like a good thing?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#175

Post by gnopgnip »

hinkley wrote: post #53
dimitrios1 wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

When I was young and dreamed of being a rock star^W^W entrepreneur I used to pay more attention to contract law. It seems like everywhere from roommate, landlord, business, or partnership contracts, we seem to write down rules but not consequences or penalties. Oh you were supposed to pay rent or this invoice, but I can't make you do it? What's the point of contracts? The time I owned property with someone, I at leas…

As an partial/joint owner of a property you always have the right to partition, even if you don't have a contract ahead of time.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#176

Post by [deleted] »

brlewis wrote: post #23
danenania wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

[deleted]

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#177

Post by jessaustin »

TheSpiceIsLife wrote: post #33
ahelwer wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For crimes like this it isn't a matter of "reform" in the same way as when dealing with regular anti-social behavior by individuals. These are people who have been given huge amounts of resources and trust then betrayed us all. I would be very happy for them to be permanently banned from any position in government for the rest of their lives. Instead, nothing happens to them and they fail upwards.

Mandatory sentencing would require a guilty conviction though. And we can pretty much guarantee any high-level judge who starts handing out guilty verdicts to high level government bureaucrats will swiftly find themselves unemployed, or worse, and replaced by judges who don't do that. It seems to be the closer we look at high-level government bureaucracy the more similarities we see with organised crime. Fail upwards…

...will swiftly find themselves unemployed, or worse...

In USA, federal judges are appointed for life. They may be impeached by Congress, but the general public will notice when Congress impeaches the first judge in living memory who attempts to impose the rule of law on the bureaucracy. It will take a change of heart, however. Anyone who has any inclination in this direction would never be appointed in the first place.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#178

Post by joshuamorton »

mandelbrotwurst wrote: post #142
joshuamorton wrote: post #119

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In what way was the British Government "held accountable"? British leaders in Britain weren't held accountable, and many of the eventual founders were high level bureaucrats in the British government of the American colonies.

They lost the territory and all of its resources that allowed those within it to eventually overtake their status as the world's most powerful nation.

Note that in the broader context the claim was that we should throw politicians in prison, or face punishment for doing illegal things.

Britain as an entity certainly faced consequences from US independence, but they didn't behead the queen (which *did happen 20 years later in france).

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#179

Post by toast0 »

lordnacho wrote: post #123
yyyk wrote: post #112

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's no choice in a democracy but to have something like the pardon power. The reason is that we need protection also from the power of judicial branch, which is abusable like any branch with power. Not having a pardon power allows bad judges to throw anyone they don't like into jail with no recourse by anyone. In a democracy, all branches are checked by the others, and this is a necessary check on the judicial br…

Now suppose the kid who shot the people in Kenosha gets a pardon (I don't know about jurisdiction). What would be the check on presidential power in that case? I think the pardoning thing is absolutely wrong in the US form, where it is used quite often. I think it's just crazy that you can do something illegal but if you can just talk one guy into it, you are off the hook. The only case I see where it makes sense is…

The federal check on improper use of pardons is impeachment. Of course, that's a huge hurdle.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#180

Post by propogandist »

mLuby wrote: post #102
dn3500 wrote: post #93

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know what I don't get? Why is Edward Snowden, who exposed these crimes, being treated like a criminal?

He knowingly and clearly broke laws by stealing and disclosing classified information. I think he was ethically correct to do so, and his act qualified as civil disobedience, but that's why the US government is after him.

Media is calling Snowden a "leaker" rather than whistleblower, because Trump has been considering pardoning him. The only thing the media cares about is 'orange man bad'.

>Trump says he is considering pardon for leaker Edward Snowden

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-snowden/trum...

discussion: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24174265

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