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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#41
post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

There's an old maxim in the Common Law that "every right has a remedy". But it's just a maxim, and rights are often recognized long before any remedy. One of the most recent (relative to the long term) and conspicuous attempts by American courts to try to judicially craft a remedy was the creation of the so-called Bivens Action, which permits citizens to sue Federal officials for civil rights violations in the absence of any statute. See https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/bivens_actions and https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bivens_v._Six_Unknown_Named_Ag... But over the past 40 years conservative justices have not only cabined but nearly extinguished Bivens claims, arguing that it abrogates the principle of sovereign immunity and subverts the legislative process. Ironically (or not so ironically), the same justices over the same timespan have judicially created defenses to S.1983 civil rights suits, protecting state officials in contravention of clear constitutional and statutory text. Both sides promote a background principle of law in contravention of nominal legal texts; "every right has a remedy" and individual justice in the case of the liberal faction, sovereign immunity in the case of the conservatives.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#42
Now do illegal unmaskings of US citizens[1]!

Question for everyone: in October 2016 the head of the NSA did an audit on unaskings. What percentage do you think were illegal?

> One paragraph in the report states that ??% of the Section 704 and 705(b) FISA searches made during this time were non-compliant with applicable laws and therefore criminal.

Take a guess before you click this [2] link and find out.

I challenge you to even find a mainstream news article about this. It's extremely hard, by design. Let's put aside politics and hold the intelligence agencies accountable.

1. https://justthenews.com/accountability/russia-and-ukraine-sc... 2. https://www.usapoliticstoday.org/fisa-court-ruling-85-obamas...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

>It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. Says who? And why? >I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law Why do you want 'real' democracy? What makes you think that getting rid of other non-democratic institutions, like Congress, like the Presidency, and institute Athenian-style mob rule…

> but do you honestly think your life would be better if this particular, and relatively minor, aspect of the Presidency would be curtailed?

Why even bother saying this?

Each of us can want / advocate for whatever changes each of us prefers in any given moment.

There's plenty of resources in the world, and within each of us, to want better for, say, our kids; more space exploration; a presidential role with fewer perks; an end to hunger; and our local street to be kept cleaner.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#44
post #27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

> expect a pardon from the president.

Biden is on record saying this is right off the table. He will not pardon Trump.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#45
post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

We are objectively an oligarchy; there's no other explanation that makes sense.

objectively your post is false.

the US has a flawed democracy, but a democracy nonetheless: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

consider the rest of the countries in that list

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#47
post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem with your idea is that the court is sometimes weighing/balancing competing rights and responsibilities from separate parts of the Constitution. For example, when is a church’s hiring practice an equal protection violation? Or is it an exercise of freedom of religion?

That gives me an idea for some big time controversy. Pass a law that says your religion can override specific laws such as hiring discrimination. In exchange for those freedoms the government now gets to enforce your religion's rules on your followers if you're not doing it. Or at least the government can fine/sue your organization for failure to enforce the rules. That's such a bad idea but it would cause so much ju…

> That's such a bad idea

.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#48
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Biden's promising to pardon all non-violent drug crimes, is he not? Though not historical, if it were to happen that could mark a turning point for our country.

Though one could also use that same pardon power to avoid prosecution for domestic terrorists that support your agenda or crimes of election fraud. So I'm definitely on the side of revoking one person's power to override the entire judiciary for arbitrary reasons.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#49
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

>I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra I'll tell you why you're baffled. Those kinds of issues tend to be very complicated because the world is complicated and messy. However people don't do well with grey and nuance, so instead they try to map it to something they can get a handle on that match their world-view and ideology and reinforce by reading highly partisan summaries (where the…

Ah yes, lots of subtlety and nuance involved in the creation of an illicit program which was end-run around an explicit Congressional prohibition against helping the Nicaraguan contras. There was so much subtlety and messiness they even had to destroy tons of documents about their activities so no one else would be exposed to all that messy complexity!

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#50

Now do illegal unmaskings of US citizens[1]! Question for everyone: in October 2016 the head of the NSA did an audit on unaskings. What percentage do you think were illegal? > One paragraph in the report states that ??% of the Section 704 and 705(b) FISA searches made during this time were non-compliant with applicable laws and therefore criminal. Take a guess before you click this [2] link and find out. I challenge…

> Let's put aside politics and hold the intelligence agencies accountable.

Lol.

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