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Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

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Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#31
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

>It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law.

Says who? And why?

>I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law

Why do you want 'real' democracy? What makes you think that getting rid of other non-democratic institutions, like Congress, like the Presidency, and institute Athenian-style mob rule - will make the world a better place?

I am being facetious, and I get what you mean, but do you honestly think your life would be better if this particular, and relatively minor, aspect of the Presidency would be curtailed?

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#32
post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe some laws just don't have penalties? Having laws with no penalties is rather common. https://politics.stackexchange.com/questions/26724/what-is-t...

Wow, this is an outstanding post and could probably be an HN submission in its own right. Thank you for sharing.

People reading these comments agreed ;)

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24357314

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#33
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful what you wish for. Mandatory sentencing removes any possibility of judicial discretion. And then there's the problem that gaol tends not to reform people.

For crimes like this it isn't a matter of "reform" in the same way as when dealing with regular anti-social behavior by individuals. These are people who have been given huge amounts of resources and trust then betrayed us all. I would be very happy for them to be permanently banned from any position in government for the rest of their lives. Instead, nothing happens to them and they fail upwards.

Mandatory sentencing would require a guilty conviction though.

And we can pretty much guarantee any high-level judge who starts handing out guilty verdicts to high level government bureaucrats will swiftly find themselves unemployed, or worse, and replaced by judges who don't do that.

It seems to be the closer we look at high-level government bureaucracy the more similarities we see with organised crime.

Fail upwards indeed.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#34
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

I think it’s meant as a “check” on the judicial branch - if the head of the executive isn’t okay with the judicial branch’s dicision.

But this isn’t really clarified, and in practice it’s usually used incredibly ambiguously boardering nefarious.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#35
post #27
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Throwing out a prediction: If the Biden/Harris ticket wins in 2020 and Trump is charged with anything, expect a pardon from the president. People will rage for a bit, get tired, run out of attention span, and move on to the next controversy.

Trump is going to get screwed anyway, even if Biden would step that low (he'd risk alienating all the progressives, I doubt he's dumb enough to do this) Trump would still have to answer to the New York DA.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#36
post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

Question for history buffs: What are some instances where you'd say, "Gee, I'm glad Presidential pardon was available"?

Carter pardoning all of the draft dodgers from Vietnam was a decent use of the power.

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/01/21/president-carter-p...

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#37
post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

What updates does the US constitution need? I think if we were to rewrite it today it would become largely the same, maybe with a footer that says “and this time we really mean it”

I'd say the Second Amendment would need to be tweaked. Our gun control laws are honestly really in breach, and I think they are very sensible pieces of legislation, so we should make everything consistent.

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#39
post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems to have a long tradition. I'm still baffled by how little punishment there was for Iran-Contra, key people were simply pardoned by Bush, or how little punishment there was for the Abu Ghraib prisoner torture, just looking at the pictures of the wikipedia article makes me want to throw up.

It seems to me that just the pardon power by itself is fundamentally incompatible with democracy and the rule of law. It's like saying you're a pacifist... except for Tuesdays when you go on a weekly killing spree. I imagine that if we can survive and progress long enough to have real democracy and rule of law, our present system will be viewed a transitional period that, for all its very real improvements, was still…

on pardons, and the many reasons why they're used: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon

on the many flaws of democracy: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_democracy

also, the democracy index: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democracy_Index

Re: Ninth Circuit rules NSA's bulk collection of Americans' call records was illegal

#40
post #6

You know what I don't get? There is no penalty for violating the highest law of the land (the constitution). How is it anymore than a suggestion or a guidline if government officials are not punished for violating it? And that is exactly how lae enforcement and intelligence community treat it. The US constitution needs lots of updates but this maybe the most important item -- manadatory prison terms for anyone acting…

The government commits so many felonies and break so many laws daily that laws are really just for us peasants these days.
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