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What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

blogs.lse.ac.uk

81–90 of 92 posts

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#81
post #18

In reality, I think this fiasco has more to do with politics than algorithms. One of the big problems is that the alternatives had downsides which were largely glossed over for political reasons - for example the university growth cap isn't just an arbitrary creation, it exists to stop more prestigious universities siphoning off a disproportionate share of students and leaving less prestigious ones in deep trouble an…

> the university growth cap isn't just an arbitrary creation, it exists to stop more prestigious universities siphoning off a disproportionate share of students and leaving less prestigious ones in deep trouble and this seems likely to happen now. I've never understood this UK policy personally. In the US there are no such caps and yet less-than-top-tier universities have had no trouble attracting plenty of students.…

In the UK all universities are the same price.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#82

We know that university admissions is a very poor, deeply flawed process. That people object this year but didn't object last year is very telling. It shows that people will happily accept a bad system with poor results AS LONG AS they are given some small illusion of personal control over that system. As long as people can say "people like me are very unlikely to do well BUT I will be fine because I will work harder…

The students just wanted to be measured against the objective standard that they were promised.

This doesn't require assumptions of naïveté on their part about equality of opportunity w.r.t teaching quality, schools resources and so on.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#83
post #53
post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> On the one hand, you leave it to educators and employers to select candidates based on unreliable grades, versus excluding swathes of the population from opportunity. That "versus" is unwarranted - unless everyone is given top marks, exclusion happens in either case. In fact it would happen in that case as well, as top colleges (practically by definition of 'top') cannot accept everyone. All you've done is changed…

Ofqual Chairman Says It Was A "Fundamental Mistake" To Believe Algorithm Grades "Would Ever Be Acceptable" https://www.politicshome.com/news/article/ofqual-algorithm-m...

Well, yes. By a curious coincidence he is also chair of the Centre for Data Ethics and Innovation which is publishing a paper on bias in algorithmic decision making.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#84

Why not just hold the tests, except outside and far apart. They have stadiums and stuff. Honestly, this whole thing seems like a manufactured problem. You could hold them outside, and stagger them so there are ten papers, and then just normal-curve-adjust to the first paper. Other countries already do multi-day tests easily. And if you don't want to do curving, just treat it the way you treat GREs/IELTS/TOEFL etc. Do…

> You could hold them outside

Given British weather, this would be a desperate gample at best.

> They have stadiums and stuff.

I don't think even Eton have their own stadium.

It might be worth you considering a different country's culture before generalising sweepingly.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#85

Why not just hold the tests, except outside and far apart. They have stadiums and stuff. Honestly, this whole thing seems like a manufactured problem. You could hold them outside, and stagger them so there are ten papers, and then just normal-curve-adjust to the first paper. Other countries already do multi-day tests easily. And if you don't want to do curving, just treat it the way you treat GREs/IELTS/TOEFL etc. Do…

> You could hold them outside Given British weather, this would be a desperate gample at best. > They have stadiums and stuff. I don't think even Eton have their own stadium. It might be worth you considering a different country's culture before generalising sweepingly.

I moved to America from London, my dude. I still have family all over the UK. Spare me.

It's solvable.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#86
post #48

Serious question: Why weren't the exams taken? Everything I have read about this glosses over this critical bit which I am very curious about. I understand there is/was a worldwide pandemic and all of that, but it feels to me that there wasn't necessarily a reason exams couldn't be taken in socially-distanced class rooms (with students wearing masks, as well as the teachers, of course) or if needed be in repurposed v…

Competence. In the next couple of weeks Schools are going to come back in the UK. There will be little to no real routines to limit the virus, and certainly no funding. That's 7 months into the pandemic. To put it simply, it was easier to just disregard the personal achievement of an entire generation than to spend money on actually sorting out a reasonable testing measure. Figuring out a real way of making sure exams were taken would've required competence.

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#87

The problem was not using an algorithm, it was that they used a crap algorithm that could award students grades that were higher than those even available on the paper that they sat, and made it impossible to get a high grade if no-one fromm your college got one before. I'd love to see the details of the algorithm itself. Surely it can't have been too difficult to put some guard rails in there to prevent it moving an…

and made it impossible to get a high grade if no-one fromm your college got one before Well that is unlikely. If you are going to handle it algorithmically then what else would you expect. Clearly the teachers can't be relied on because now everybody is getting an A*, the grades are effectively useless as an indicator. I was disappointed although not surprised that the government caved on this.

It's not unlikely, it's practically certain. If you have hundreds of schools there absolutely will be a handful of students who do better than previous years and there will be a handful of students who do worse than ever before. Maybe it's not a big deal to hand a C to someone deserving of an E, but it's certainly a big deal that the moron at the school that gets good grades (read: private school) gets a pass, whilst the genius at the school that historically did badly (read: state school) gets screwed. Now, given that's how this system works, take a look: do you think the politicans repsonsible for this went to the state school?

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#88
post #48

Serious question: Why weren't the exams taken? Everything I have read about this glosses over this critical bit which I am very curious about. I understand there is/was a worldwide pandemic and all of that, but it feels to me that there wasn't necessarily a reason exams couldn't be taken in socially-distanced class rooms (with students wearing masks, as well as the teachers, of course) or if needed be in repurposed v…

> it feels to me that there wasn't necessarily a reason exams couldn't be taken in socially-distanced class rooms (with students wearing masks, as well as the teachers, of course) or if needed be in repurposed venues, like football stadiums (leaving plenty of space between students).

Exactly what you’re proposing just isn’t feasible, because of the sheer numbers. I see American posters on reddit complain about having to do a handful of finals at the end of high-school, and the SAT/etc as well, which I understand is optional.

“In my day...” (wow I’m old... this was only about 12 years ago) my sixth-form had about 1,300 students (650 in yr12/L6, 650 in yr13/U6). Most L6 students did 5 AS-level subjects and 4 A2 subjects. Most subjects are then comprised of modules (e.g. In mathematics: Pure P1/P2/etc, Stats S1/S2/S3/etc, Mechanics M1/M2/etc, Decision/Discrete D1/D2/etc), and each module has its exam at the end of the term/trimester.

In my case, I took 5 subjects at AS-level (L6) and had no less than 8 exams in the May-June of my first year. Multiply that by 1,300 - with probably over 100 different exams. That’s almost 11,000 Covid-safe exam-sittings that need to be arranged.

Social-distancing regs mean that you need four times the floor-space for an exam room than previously (doubling distance from 3 feet to 6 feet in both directions). Doing exams outside on a field wouldn’t work: inclement weather and even a gentle breeze and writing on paper difficult and distracting. Doing it indoors means you’ll not only fill your sports-halls and cafeterias (which we did every year anyway) and need to spill-over into smaller classrooms - which means you need many more exam invigilators.

...and invigilators, in my experience, tended to be older people (60s-70s) - often recent retiree teachers. The exact same people who are quite legitimately fearing for their life over Covid so we can’t blame them for choosing to stay home.

...so we have a 2-month long period where schools and colleges need 4x the space and with far fewer authorised staff to oversee it.

Some schools will be able to handle it, others won’t. If it’s a combination secondary-school + sixth-form then they’ll also need to handle GCSE exams for the yr11 kids and SATs (unrelated to the US SAT exam) for the kids in yr9. Additionally schools also have “mocks” for yr10 (mock-GCSEs, but they still count towards your score in yr11). There may also be additional testing done for other years at the county-level. So that’s another few thousand exam sittings to add to that. My secondary-school sent the Yr7 and yr8 kids home for a week if they were overloaded with handling exams for so many. So if the LEA/exam-boards were to press-on with the exams then that’s unfair to the kids at schools that don’t have the capacity.

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Grading “by algorithm” - especially when that algorithm isn’t public - nor probably even we’ll-understood by the MPs in-charge - is a bad idea, yes. But I can’t think of a workable alternative: people’s lives should not depend on the outcome of exams - but we can’t trust teachers own subjective grading of their own students to be necessarily and sufficiently objective enough. There’s no economically-viable solution to this problem - even without a pandemic going on.

——

Now that I think about it - I suppose one option would be still do in-person exams, but only do the core/essential exams for the most important course modules and use that as the basis for university admissions - so if this pandemic happened 12 years ago I’d only sit the P1/P2/P3/etc exams for mathematics and disregard Mechanics/Statistics/Discrete - ditto for physics, and so on. So the exam load would drop from my estimate of 11,000 to maybe 7,000-ish - I don’t think that would be small enough to manage still)

Re: What the world can learn from the UK's A-level grading fiasco

#90

How did they deal with this problem in other countries, say Ireland or Japan?

Japan for the most part just continued with their exams as usual. I think they delayed bar exams for a bit, but for the most part school activity has continued throughout the pandemic, disease burden in the country hasn't been that high.
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