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Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

bbc.com

171–180 of 371 posts

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#171
post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Merkel of Germany has been chancellor since 2005 (15 years) Putin has been president since 2000 with 4 years break (16 years). So technically he is not THAT bad in comparison.

Except she was voted without cheating, never killed the opposition or controls all branches of government and media.

Voted by who?

German chancellor is elected by Bundestag and not directly by the people.

I guess in terms of USA that would be like Democrats and Republicans coming up with a president.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#173
post #122
post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I agree, even though it seems to be an unpopular opinion. I don't have a strong opinion on that, and honestly I don't really care, but it looks way too weird. I mean, people mention Litvinenko and Skripal. With Litvinenko there really was no doubt with regards to both if he was assassinated and why he was assassinated. Whole story with Skripal was weird, it was a huge scandal which very much served UK (or anybo…

You have presented doubt about the given hypothesis without offering an alternative. Putin & co. is the simplest explanation. Why question it? Who else would stand to gain from this? Because they do gain from it: intimidating the opposition is the name of the game in a dictatorship.

Alternative was given by the poster I was answering to: a false flag. Who has anything to gain? Basically anybody, who needs any reason to blame Russia for everything, which is a very popular thing to do for the last 10 years at least, and getting more and more popular lately. Intimidating the opposition? I already said why I don't buy it. There is no real opposition to intimidate. Navalny does what he does for the last 10 years, he didn't become any more dangerous — less dangerous, in fact, since novelty wore off and he isn't perceived very seriously anymore. BBC may call him "opposition leader", but most of the Russian people who don't like Putin (and there is a lot of them) don't really see him as a leader, more like "yet another clown".

Let me put it this way. There is a "perceived value" and a "real value" of assassination. So, if you want to send a message, "real value" is metric of people you want to get a message getting this particular message. Like if you are GRU/CIA/Medellin cartel (basically the same things) and you want every cartel member to know that traitors will be punished, you want it to be relatable for the other cartel members and gruesome. You don't really want it to be very much high-profile (which it must be to some degree if you want it to be gruesome, but only as a side effect).

"Perceived value" is what is "real" to complete outsiders unaware of situation. It is what will cause the resonance in BBC and among the people you really don't give a fuck about getting the message (and in case of Russia govt. — don't want to get the message: Russia absolutely isn't trying to tell the world there is a dictatorship, it wants for the outsiders to get exactly the opposite message, that there is "real competition", i.e. people like Navalny that are against the regime, but just don't have that much of a support).

So, to summarize, if you are Medellin cartel sending message to its members: maximize "real" minimizing "perceived". If you want to set up Medellin cartel: you maximize "perceived" and don't give a fuck about "real".

Now, what is real/perceived ratio in the case of Navalny? As I already said, this is my personal (pretty humble in this case, and not particularly strong) opinion, but my estimation is: very, very low. I don't know of any "people just like Navalny" (so it will be relatable), that are actually dangerous to the regime and need to get "a message". On the other hand, "perceived value" is very high: in fact, the moment Navalny gets to a hospital, everyone automatically assumes it is an assassination by the Russian govt, since he is such a prominent "opposition leader".

So, if I was GRU, I wouldn't want Navalny to be killed in an obvious way. If I was a CIA, I most likely would.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#175

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not my reliable source, but the Government of Germany.

https://iz.ru/1056039/2020-09-02/sozdatel-novichka-prokommen... Creator of novichok, about poisen

Новичок is the umbrella name of dozens of substances of which 4 are now widely known. The mastermind behind those substances is long dead.

The guy you are referring to is one of the two defectors and he was mostly an office clerk with access to top secret documents. Take his comments with care.

Moreover, institutions that worked on these substances in 1970..1980 still exist today. You do not know what they produce now, but given the general decline in scientific research in Russia, I am not surprised their deliverables barely work.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#176
post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

German elections are considerably more legitimate. For one, opposition politicians aren’t poisoned.

What party is navalny a member of? How many seats do they have?

Ask Boris Nemtsov how opposing Putin turns out from inside the Duma.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#178

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that billionaire just happens to have access to a Russian Military Chemical Weapon?

You may have missed that the elusive WireCard CEO Jan Marsalek had the formula too. It's not a huge secret that random billionaires can't buy. Some people apparently believe the spin from some low-quality media that using or accusing of using Novitchok is basically proof Russia did it. It says more about their naivety than anything else. https://www.ft.com/content/941a9a2e-88df-4a66-9b3c-670bb7eb4...

Having the "formula" for a chemical weapon in no way grants you the ability to manufacture it.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#179
post #155

There will never be a power vacuum in world politics. If it’s not going to be US, it’s going to be China and/or Russia. I have been thinking quite a lot how will that world look. Will it be better or worse?

Russia’s economy is smaller than Canada’s and per capita it’s citizens are poorer than Poles. Russia is not a world power and hasn’t been for a while.

Depends on how you measure power. In this context, I think military power, Russia is the most formidable force in the eastern hemisphere.

Re: Russia opposition leader poisoned with Novichok

#180

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why? It’s likely the reason why we have seen terrorist attacks where people drive into crowds of people. Cars and trucks is everywhere, its easily accessible. I would argue that the other way around is the dangerous assumption, that people will NOT use the easiest accessible means to hurt other people.

> Why? Because the goal is reaching the goal, not the process. Undoubtedly, if s terrorist group has access to this stuff, they won't reject the idea of using it just because driving a van or yielding a knife might appear simpler. We're talking about lines of thinking that planned hijacking three commercial airplanes simultaneously to fly them into high visibility targets. How is spreading poison something that's out…

The simplicity comes from a forcing function though. Complex attacks involve more people and are thus more likely to be found out.
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