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Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

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Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#51

Post by timwaagh »

DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #10

whether this navy is effective in a theater of war _today_ is a good question. They tend to be sub-optimal in a time dominated by PMC's and asymmetric warfare. Having a highly complex, maintenance-intensive fleet is nice for show and maybe to scare the odd South East Asian country into submission during disputes in the South China Sea. But for it to be effective it needs to be exercised in real life (kinetic) conditi…

China already went to war with the us over korea. not unsuccesfully and in times when China wasn't considered a threat. I'd say the US needs to treat the prospect of war with China with extreme caution. Why not shore up your own alliances first before attempting to undertake such a massive project?

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#52

Post by smabie »

onetimemanytime wrote: post #12
lazyeye wrote: post #6

I wonder how much of the hundreds millions (billions?) of dollars China was able to save due its status as a "developing economy" contributed to its massive military buildup. Or for that matter, that high priority for all developing economies, putting a lander on the moon. https://www.scmp.com/economy/china-economy/article/3004873/c...

USA has thrown and will continue to throw trillions at Covid, and has spent trillions in Afghanistan and Iraqi war. So the money is/was there

As long as there's an appetite for Treasuries and inflation is held in check, the money to spend will always be "there"

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#53

Post by Temasik »

eunos wrote: post #47
roenxi wrote: post #36

This is probably just the US Navy making an indirect play for a bigger budget. The Chinese navy and US navy are not comparable. But there is a real change afoot, it seems likely that the Chinese will master making battleships if they put their mind to it. It seems likely they have the industrial supply chains to sustain a real military build-up if they want to. Their manufacturing capacity is a very real thing and th…

They already have a sufficient mastery in making surface fleet, mainly because they also have a robust and massive civilian shipbuilding industry (neck-to-neck with South Korea). Their next target probably is to master making submarine and nuclear propulsion. What I am looking forward is that assuming Chinese battery maker managed to lead the world both in research and manufacturing because massive Chinese Electric V…

mandarin is a hard language and hangyupinyi is lame

also aging rapidly

china will be another japan in a few decades

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#54

Post by consumer451 »

RachelF wrote: post #28
camillomiller wrote: post #20

China Military spending 2019: $261 billion, or 1.9% GDP US Military spending in 2019: $732 billion, or 3.4% GDP China leapfrogged the U.S. by spending a little less than one third of what the US squandered. Just let that sink in. Oh and you know what China really is spending its money on, instead of militarized local police forces? Research. China R&D spending in 2018: 4.11% of GDP. U.S. R&D spending in 2016 and max…

China spends a lot in the US, too. Raytheon, Lockheed Martin and Boeing all sell lots to the PLA. We are arming our enemies.

Do you have links showing these sales? I wouldn’t be shocked, but it is a strong claim.

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#55

Post by Animats »

bobthepanda wrote: post #45
Animats wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China's plans aren't a big secret. There's Made In China 2025.[1] The 14th Five Year Plan is being drafted now. Unlike the USSR, China was reasonably successful in meeting the goals of the 13 Five Year Plans so far, with the notable exception of the Great Leap Forward fiasco of the 1960s. The Made In China 2025 plan focuses on pharmaceutical, automotive, aerospace, semiconductor, IT and robotics manufacturing. The go…

I doubt they'll get to state of the art in aerospace, at least not in a plane that is actually capable of flying in every country. Aircraft development is hard . Many states have tried sponsoring programs and they have mostly been duds, like Japan and Russia; even successful ones, like Canada's Bombardier and Brazil's Embraer, have or were about to sell to the Boeing-Airbus duopoly because the costs of additional air…

It took Airbus 21 years to produce something that would sell. But they got there. COMAC is at year 12. The COMAC C919 has a few flying prototypes. It's been a troubled project, with major changes, such as going from carbon fiber to aluminum, along the way. Still uses imported engines. It's kind of a dud, like the Airbus 300 was. But the government of China is willing to keep putting in money until they get a decent airliner. The next one might be saleable outside China.

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#56

Post by heavyset_go »

stann wrote: post #8
chrisco255 wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They won't because they love money and they generate significant revenue in that market. Same reason nobody is calling China out for imprisoning a million Muslims in a concentration camp.

China is NOT 'imprisoning a million Muslims in a concentration camp'. Dig a little deeper. Hyperbole does not help anybody.

Yes, they are[1].

[1] https://www.reuters.com/investigates/special-report/muslims-...

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#57

Post by lenkite »

Lio wrote: post #2

Instead of endlessly rehashing Blade Runner and ripping off Neuromancer, it would be nice to see film and TV execs produce something about the what the future world will look like when it’s dominated by the Chinese Communist Party. They won’t though because the Chinese Communist Party is fucking scary and doesn’t take to being commented on. All those little plastic widgets and cheap clothes we import are paying for t…

China is well on its way to being a super-power and will likely be the sole global superpower by 2040, fully capable of enforcing their will and policies on all nations of the world.

They have already successfully infiltrated most international and political organisations as well as the international press to ensure there is no consensual united stand taken against them.

They can successfully carry out mass sterilisation and genocide campaigns with little or no blow-back from anyone.

What amazes me is how few recognise the extraordinary threat they pose to the world today.

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#58

Post by DyslexicAtheist »

timwaagh wrote: post #51
DyslexicAtheist wrote: post #10

whether this navy is effective in a theater of war _today_ is a good question. They tend to be sub-optimal in a time dominated by PMC's and asymmetric warfare. Having a highly complex, maintenance-intensive fleet is nice for show and maybe to scare the odd South East Asian country into submission during disputes in the South China Sea. But for it to be effective it needs to be exercised in real life (kinetic) conditi…

China already went to war with the us over korea. not unsuccesfully and in times when China wasn't considered a threat. I'd say the US needs to treat the prospect of war with China with extreme caution. Why not shore up your own alliances first before attempting to undertake such a massive project?

yes timing right now would be terrible. if those alliances would be solid however then maybe there would be less reason to escalate things (because soft power and sanctions would be more effective?).

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#59

Post by dwd »

raxxorrax wrote: post #21
dwd wrote: post #13

Number of warships is meaningless, given the US probably doesn't even bother including patrol boats in the count. Gross tonnage or number of capital ships over a specific tonnage would be a better comparison.

True, but I doubt that is a good measure either. Production and logistical capabilities of missiles is probably more important. Large ships like carriers are very vulnerable and heavy pieces of metal to direct missile attacks or modern subs.

"My logisticians are a humorless lot - they know if my campaign fails, they are the first ones I will slay." attributed to Alexander the Great

Re: Pentagon: China Now Has World’s Largest Navy

#60

Post by throwaway4good »

nickff wrote: post #46
throwaway4good wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Far less power projection capability" That is an important point. It is a strategic objective of the US to be able project massive military power any place in the world. However that is not the case for China (as it is now). China's main strategic goal is secure access to the pacific ocean (even if it is met with an American naval blockade). It is obvious to me that that goal is much cheaper than the American goal.

China does not have secure access to the Pacific Ocean; U.S. attack submarines and air-launched anti-ship missiles mean that Chinese ships are at risk as soon as they leave the South China Sea, or possibly even port. I think the Chinese objective is to have enough power to deny U.S. access to the South China Sea, and perhaps the sea of Japan. They also want to be able to project power in the case of more limited conf…

The wikipedia on the first island chain has a summation of the US military strategy in the South China Sea.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_island_chain

I think it is a given at this point that the US will loose supremacy in the area because of the size of the Chinese economy and the fact that the South China Sea is their home-turf.

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