Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993 • Hacker News Board

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#411

Post by coryrc » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:40 AM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #358

Qwertious wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Talk about removing non-STEM courses from university suggests a disagreement on what university is . IMO if you want to remove non-STEM courses, what you actually want is a trade school. University is all about learning outside of the normal narrow viewpoint, so removing everything outside the narrow viewpoint defeats the point. "But so what", you might say. Well, here's the problem: trade schools already exist, and…

> University is all about learning outside of the normal narrow viewpoint PRECISELY! Watch this then and tell me I am wrong: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKkNIOkGtnQ We are funding and paying for a "narrow narrow viewpoint" to our detriment. This is isn't what universities are for. I am 100% in agreement with you in that regard. Watch the interview and think about what he is saying.

This is a 1.5 hour video, you might want to summarize a bit...

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#412

Post by tnecniv » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:43 AM UTC

PaulDavisThe1st wrote: post #247

pa7x1 wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Top European universities provide pretty good education pre-PhD level, in many cases the first 3-5 years in European schools is superior and more focused than the equivalent US curriculum. The first 1 or 2 years in US universities seem spent filling the gaps left by a mediocre High School education. US universities are then miles ahead of most European schools in their PhD programs bare a few exceptions (Oxford, Camb…

PhD programs in the US and elsewhere are often not directly comparable. Doing a PhD in the US typically involves 1-3 years still taking classes. Doing one in the UK means starting thesis-forming research immediately. Not really the same thing at all.

non-US PhD programs typically require you have a masters. In the US that is not a requirement, hence the course work. If you are a more mature student coming in (e.g. have a masters) the course work is often a straightforward refresher and you can start doing research when you aren't doing classwork.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#413

Post by an_opabinia » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:47 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #87

noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

I don't understand why there isn't simply the option of making a lot more colleges. "High Quality, Low Cost, Pick 2" isn't how most markets work.

College's rising price could be as simple as transferring the economic surplus of the education, in terms of your future expected salary, to the institution. That literally happens through loans. For some people, as a great WSJ article noted, loans do work out.

That's all blowhards (not you) really mean by "high quality" anyway.

Nonetheless it is quite the puzzle, why there aren't more colleges.

Like Leon Black could afford, just by himself, to found not one, but five world class universities, instead of donating to Harvard, one for each of his children to be admitted to. And yet.

This was the way medical school quotas / exclusions for Jews were dealt with: new medical schools that didn't discriminate!

Maybe it's a little about money. Getting your kids a guaranteed Yale admit probably costs around $20m - then the legacy system can deal with the rest of your family. It's a lot more affordable than founding a school.

Still I don't think it's about money. There isn't some monopoly on schools or lack of spending. Historically, and in my personal belief, someone has to feel they stopped getting a fair deal from the system. Then there will be more schools.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#414

Post by galaxyLogic » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:47 AM UTC

noetic_techy wrote: post #59

sokoloff wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does the choice of "High Quality, Low Cost" look like in practice? (Because I'm not seeing how to make that happen, other than "burying the actually high cost someplace where it's spread out and hard to see, so it looks like low cost".)

Without government backed student loans for literally anyone who wants it, you suddenly dry up the money for colleges. They are forced to compete on degree cost and quality alone, and degree ROI will likely start to get factored into the price. College used to be relatively low cost long ago and easily accessible to the middle class, even lower middle class. Yes, the colleges will be hurting and screaming if they too…

I think an Uber or AirBnB of higher education is just around the corner. Uber wasn't simply a policy-change in taxi-cabs. It was a change in tech that allowed drivers to find the customers. AirBnB is about computer-based rating system which allows providers and customers rate each other. Computers and internet make that kind of thing possible.

Hey why not allow students to take courses from multiple universities online, and rate those courses? Let professors rate their students, but also students rate their professors.

And pandemic makes people see that they can (or must) study from home anyway, with their computer and video-connection. That simply wasn't technically possible 20 years ago.

E-learning has its pros and cons, but it is still a new field which has room to improve.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#415

Post by 7thaccount » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:47 AM UTC

dragonwriter wrote: post #409

7thaccount wrote: post #340

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. There are a lot of pointless liberal arts classes for a STEM degree in the US. For example, my engineering degree required 3 English classes, psychology, fine arts, and sociology. These were all incredibly easy and I found the course material was what I was used to as a freshman in highschool (no I'm not exaggerating). So those classes weren't even remedial, but felt like a joke. Please note that I'm no…

> There are a lot of pointless liberal arts classes for a STEM degree in the US Only in a liberal arts program. In an engineering program, there is almost none. Other programs may fall in between. When I was at UC Davis (which was before Biological Sciences was its own college), the non-major liberal arts course load went (both in general, and where multiple colleges had the same degree program, between those specifi…

I've looked at many programs and most schools claim that they want students to be "well rounded". I think that is pretty common and a scam, but that's just my opinion.

We may have a difference of opinions here, but six classes that I have no actual need for IS a lot to me. I still had to show up for those classes, listen to the instructors, do homework, buy stupid textbooks, and briefly study for the tests even though they were easy. That cost money that was the equivalent of me flushing it down the toilet, but more importantly, robbed me of additional time I could have spent studying for my thermodynamics, electronics, and differential equations classes (things that I was struggling in and I was intentionally paying good money to learn) or sleeping or actually getting to spend time with my fiance.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#416

Post by tnecniv » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:50 AM UTC

barry-cotter wrote: post #371

Dannymetconan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

> Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. But they’re not universal and there’s nowhere near the level of handholding and support that’s common in US universities with high tuition, i.e. private ones. If you have a problem in a German university it’s on you to run around and solve it and if you can’t the administrators are quite likely to say “tough” if you tell them. Missed a deadline? Your p…

> If you have a problem in a German university it’s on you to run around and solve it and if you can’t the administrators are quite likely to say “tough” if you tell them. Missed a deadline? Your problem, should have read the syllabus. Come back next year.

They'll say that in all the private fancy US schools I've attended, too.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#417

Post by jeffe » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:53 AM UTC

tnecniv wrote: post #407

throwawaygh wrote: post #288

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, a few things: 1. Research is part of the pedagogy. Getting involved in a research lab as an undergraduate is a great way to land in the top 5-10 percentile. 2. I think what you're saying is roughly correct, but would warn that you can very easily go way too far in the other direction. For example, check out some of the smaller colleges and state branch campuses launching data science departments staffed entirel…

> Research is part of the pedagogy. Getting involved in a research lab as an undergraduate is a great way to land in the top 5-10 percentile. I just want to point out for any newer undergrads that might be reading that research is really one of the best things you can do during your time at school. Even if you don't plan on going into academia, it looks great on a resume and professors are often have industry connect…

A few caveats to be aware of: more scrutinizing employers will recognize that undergraduate research at the same university you attend is usually a gimme. And at my large state school was often used for cheap labor that grad students didn't want to do.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#418

Post by KMag » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:55 AM UTC

rlanday wrote: post #300

dragonwriter wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> CAs tax rate when you factor in federal tax is comparable to the EU Nominal rates might be, but tax burden is not. California tax burden is well under 15% GDP, and federal collections in the state are a tiny bit higher than state tax revenues, together still under 30% tax burden. EU overall tax burden is over 40% of GDP.

30% federal plus 15% state is also higher than 40%, isn‘t it?

GP is saying 15% state plus 15+epsilon% federal < 40%

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#419

Post by jesstaa » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:58 AM UTC

This is what we do in Australia. Government supported places in courses have a price cap, loans are CPI indexed and paying back the loan is scaled to your pre-tax income. If you earn more then you're required to pay back your loan faster. If you earn less than $40K, you're not required to pay back any of the loan.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#420

Post by burfog » Wed, Sep 02, 2020, 4:59 AM UTC

robomartin wrote: post #356

greedo wrote: post #256

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you think bias and indoctrination are something that only developed "over the last several decades," you're mistaken. This has been the case of all universities, since time immemorial. And the swing to the left started in the Sixties (at least in the US).

You are, of course, absolutely correct. I said the last few decades because that is, again, as you said, the current "phase" we are on. We want universities to be places where ideas from a range of schools of thought mix and are able to be explored openly and without negative repercussions. I don't want the extreme right to own university thought any more than the extreme left. We know the consequences of mono-cultur…

Hey, careful with that "Nazis" label. It implies a lot of things that are a poor fit for politics in the USA. It certainly doesn't just match up with the extreme right.

Consider these examples:

FDR actually put one ethnicity, the Japanese, in concentration camps. Harvard (proven in court) and others are discriminating against people of Asian ancestry. In 2019, 44% of colleges had segregated graduation, with black-only ceremonies. The typical Planned Parenthood is in a black community, and the founder specifically wanted to prevent that community from making more people.

Are those people and institutions the extreme right?