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Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

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Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#131

Post by klipt »

SilasX wrote: post #106
tptacek wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand why there isn't simply the option of making a lot more colleges. "High Quality, Low Cost, Pick 2" isn't how most markets work.

IMHO, because what colleges are selling is effectively a positional good[1], one valued specifically for how it ranks against other similar goods. They're selling the certification that "this person is in the n% percentile of employability". And you generally can't just make more of a positional good. That's like, "why can't Louis Vuitton ramp up production so that everyone can have a LV handbag?" [1] https://en.wiki…

Right, for example almost everyone in California can go to the state's cheap, accessible community colleges. But not everyone can go to UC Berkeley or UCLA.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#132

Post by Ericson2314 »

shkkmo wrote: post #51
Ericson2314 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would not make "Get the government out of the demand side" a rallying cry because UBI is the huge counter-example of something governments should be doing. Better to say governments should do, not fund, on the institutional level (run the school, run the hospital, like you say), and fund, not do, in the individual level (UBI not SNAP).

UBI doesn't manipulate the demand for specific markets, it is more of a monetary policy that has only an indirect impact on demand.

> UBI doesn't manipulate the demand for specific markets

Totally agreed, this a good thing.

> It is more of a monetary policy

Sure

> that has only an indirect impact on demand.

Many disagree.

Obviously the most basic goods aren't going to be consumed that much more (e.g. we might consume better food but not dramatically more calories).

That said, it's a not-fringe view that demand as been statement for ages, due to things like wages not keeping up with productivity growth. UBI is, among other things a way to fix that.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#133

Post by baron816 »

fastaguy88 wrote: post #91

It is difficult to overstate how mistaken this article is. College has mostly gotten more expensive because state support for public universities has dramatically decreased, from over 80% in the 1970's to less than 20% now. Since the taxpayer no longer pays for public higher education, the student does. The logic of this made some sense at the time; very high tuition subsidies were a gift to the upper middle and uppe…

There are other things that often get overlooked: 1) sticker price != how much students pay. Pretty much everyone gets a discount. This is designed to get super rich families to pay much more. 2) About half of student debt is incurred from graduate school, and those students are much more capable of handling that load (with some notable exceptions). 3) As was said here, the average debt upon graduation from private universities is $31K, which is very reasonable for most people. That comes out to a little of $7K/year of education. Can you just imagine living out on your own for $7/year, without gaining a degree? That seems like a steal.

The problematic debt is usually held by those who don’t complete their degree, or who attend for-profit institutions. If there’s legislative action that should be done, it should be in those arenas.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#134

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

vondur wrote: post #39
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

Too many people are enrolling in College, and this is a problem. The end result in many cases has been lower the standards to get students to graduate. More people need to be geared towards trades and manufacturing jobs. The Covid Pandemic has shown us what happens when you put all your manufacturing in one country.

> More people need to be geared towards trades and manufacturing jobs.

The key is manufacturing jobs - that is what disappeared over the last half century, and most of those jobs are semi-skilled.

But there are no jobs. There never will be - unless the US completely stopped importing from China. They can't - because then people will go to wal-mart and see the price increase, and get mad. And that doesn't take into account automation and technology further squeezing the need for workers.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#135

Post by nemothekid »

silvestrov wrote: post #57
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. The cost is low for the student but it's pretty high for the taxpayers. Not US high but still, it's not free, there's lots of bloat in the system that thrives on volume of students not on quality so they try to push forward legislation and programs to increase the number of students, especially from abroad and build more faculties/universities with more…

No, the cost to tax payers in Europe is less than what people in USA have to pay the college. This is because my University (in Europe) had no sport facilities whatsoever , not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc. It did teaching + research, and nothing else.

>had no sport facilities whatsoever, not even a soccer field. It also had no dormitories, canteens, no fancy library, sport teams etc.

Sports teams and dorms are no where near the top of the ticket of University expenses. Many of the Ivies hardly invest in sports and still come with a 60k ticket.

American private universities are more expensive because American universities hire more administrative faculty and pay them more. That’s largely where the money is going.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#136

Post by ntsplnkv2 »

smileysteve wrote: post #82
vondur wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Too many people are enrolling in College, and this is a problem. The end result in many cases has been lower the standards to get students to graduate. More people need to be geared towards trades and manufacturing jobs. The Covid Pandemic has shown us what happens when you put all your manufacturing in one country.

> More people need to be geared towards trades and manufacturing jobs. To this, and as we're on hacker news; and bootcamps are proving it for web developers; a bachelor's degree often doesn't prepare students for jobs (and the larger concepts, ethics, systems thinking, etc often come from corporate training just as well)

> (and the larger concepts, ethics, systems thinking, etc often come from corporate training just as well)

Ethics? Really? From corporations?

> and bootcamps are proving it for web developers;

And, not surprisingly, web developers make less on average than other software development positions.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#137

Post by ChuckNorris89 »

watwut wrote: post #120
ChuckNorris89 wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. The cost is low for the student but it's pretty high for the taxpayers. Not US high but still, it's not free, there's lots of bloat in the system that thrives on volume of students not on quality so they try to push forward legislation and programs to increase the number of students, especially from abroad and build more faculties/universities with more…

> bouncing in and out, not bothering to finish it or prolonging it till their thirties Very rare. Mostly because school is not paying you unless your results are super great. Meaning, if you want to eat and live inside, you need money.

Not exactly true. When parents pay your rent and food and University is free some have little incentive to take it seriously.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#138

Post by indymike »

Dannymetconan wrote: post #40
noetic_techy wrote: post #34

"The question then becomes a matter of how we fix this without diminishing access to a college education." This is the crux of it that everyone needs to get over. Universality, High Quality, Low Cost. Pick two. By letting the government meddle you have guaranteed no one can afford college and will be long in debt to a loan they cannot discharge in bankruptcy. I'd rather have cheap college then universal access for ev…

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

" Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down"

This is an easy way to ensure you do not have a diverse workforce, or even the best people for the job

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#139

Post by alexpotato »

georgeecollins wrote: post #127
Dannymetconan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

Speaking as a dual US/Italian citizen there are some things I would add to your picture (which surprised me when I first learned them). I should also add, my picture is a bit dated since I last looked at this in the early 2000's but a lot of this is still true:

US vs Italian "high school"

- Finishing Italian secondary education is most equivalent to US high school + at least the first year of most US universities

- I believe this is true for most major European countries and boils down to the expectations for students being higher in Europe than in the US

US vs Italian universities

- It's true that Italian university is free

- It's also true that "anyone" can attend

- However, there is a mandatory "advancement" exam at the end of the first year that MOST (~70% in the early 2000's) students fail which bars them from continuing

- The above is what sometimes skews comparisons between US and Italian colleges

- To complete university, you are required to do a "thesis" and then defend it. Historically, this was done orally in front of a panel

- There is also the effect that because university is free and housing is usually paid for by parents, taking 5+ years to finish is both normal and somewhat socially acceptable (this is more of an interesting side bar)

Long story short, this means the Italian university is really Sophomore year of an American university plus some graduate level work. A good example of this is how there is(was?) no separate law school in Italy since you are essentially doing advanced level courses in "undergrad".

Another comparison: at the time (early 2000s) multiple people in senior level positions in European companies mentioned to me that in their opinion, having an MBA from a top US school was equivalent to a degree from a top Italian economics school like Bocconi University. Since most US companies thought of the MBA as the "advanced" degree, they weighed it more heavily so it did "matter" in that sense but not from an education only perspective.

Re: Why has college gotten so expensive in the last 30 years? A blank check in 1993

#140

Post by eecc »

georgeecollins wrote: post #127
Dannymetconan wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Universities in Europe are generally high quality and low cost. It does have it's problems but it is not one or the other. You do not need a degree 30 years ago to do lots of jobs that now require one. Higher education for a lot of organizations is just an easy way to cut the application stack down

Are Universities in Europe really that high quality? Certainly some are, but as a parent researching schools I have been really surprised by how many European colleges are a bit mediocre by the criteria I was evaluating. For example, Spain and Italy have some of the oldest colleges in the world. But in many ways there are four or five colleges in California that are better, four or five colleges in Texas, and across…

Well that indeed is a problem.

I graduated Engineering from an Italian university and I must say much of my curriculum consisted of mind-bending exercises meant to keep us busy and out of the way. The currency we lacked most was context, insight, and an understanding of why some particular detail mattered.

I do think that of all that was thrown at me, something stuck after all; but admittedly the most insightful and profound opportunities that I missed are to be blamed on me, and on the precious little attention to students that the scarce funding allowed for.

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