Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions • Hacker News Board

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#111

Post by giantrobot » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 4:39 PM UTC

shajznnckfke wrote: post #104

giantrobot wrote: post #100

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For starters, it's not just browsing history but all of your activity on pages or in apps that use Facebook's spywa..."ads". This includes activity times, connections to other users, and even proximity to places or other people (Bluetooth beacons etc). This is all on top of the voluntary PII you might have fed directly into a Facebook profile or the shadow profile they helpfully created for you when your friend uploa…

I think these (to the extent they are true) are just a bunch of synonyms for ad targeting, which people already intuitively understand. If an ad is targeted at you, obviously the information needed to do that has to exist somewhere. People may not know the technical terminology, but they understand it. I’m not just talking about the tech filter bubble. When I visit my rural family home, people talk to me about it. Th…

So Facebook apps with access to your friends lists, group memberships, and likes aren't dossiers? As Cambridge Analytica should have demonstrated is relationship graphs are personal dossiers. They're significant predictors of habits and behavior. It's also trivial to link those graphs to selectors like phone numbers and email addresses.

But let's pretend that because Facebook isn't providing third parties Manila folders full of photocopied papers that they're not selling your PII.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#112

Post by shajznnckfke » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 5:50 PM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #111

shajznnckfke wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think these (to the extent they are true) are just a bunch of synonyms for ad targeting, which people already intuitively understand. If an ad is targeted at you, obviously the information needed to do that has to exist somewhere. People may not know the technical terminology, but they understand it. I’m not just talking about the tech filter bubble. When I visit my rural family home, people talk to me about it. Th…

So Facebook apps with access to your friends lists, group memberships, and likes aren't dossiers? As Cambridge Analytica should have demonstrated is relationship graphs are personal dossiers. They're significant predictors of habits and behavior. It's also trivial to link those graphs to selectors like phone numbers and email addresses. But let's pretend that because Facebook isn't providing third parties Manila fold…

Woah, motte, meet bailey! So by “selling dossiers” you actually meant “allows users to choose to share friends list for free”, a feature that does the same thing you can also do with your contacts list on iOS and Android? And you’re muddying the waters by bringing up a group of criminals that also used other, now defunct APIs?

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#113

Post by shajznnckfke » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 6:00 PM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #110

bryan_w wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They're selling dossiers on you to groups literally trying to gaslight and manipulate you, to subconsciously influence you to do things, or to just make you generally feel like shit. Where can I find one of these dossiers? Or at least a screenshot example of a dossier that someone bought from Facebook? Surely you wouldn't make a claim without seeing proof of this behavior happening. That would misinform people and…

Who needs a screenshot? Look at your own[0]. Yeah I am[1] trying to misinform[2] people[3]. [0] https://m.facebook.com/help/212802592074644 [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/24/technology/facebook-data/in... [2] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/faceboo... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/how-to-see-which-facebook-ap...

Wait, you’re saying that Facebook allowing you to freely download your own data is selling dossiers? Complying with GDPR is wrongdoing, when Facebook does it?

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#114

Post by giantrobot » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 6:21 PM UTC

shajznnckfke wrote: post #113

giantrobot wrote: post #110

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who needs a screenshot? Look at your own[0]. Yeah I am[1] trying to misinform[2] people[3]. [0] https://m.facebook.com/help/212802592074644 [1] https://money.cnn.com/2018/03/24/technology/facebook-data/in... [2] https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/katienotopoulos/faceboo... [3] https://www.cnbc.com/2018/03/20/how-to-see-which-facebook-ap...

Wait, you’re saying that Facebook allowing you to freely download your own data is selling dossiers? Complying with GDPR is wrongdoing, when Facebook does it?

You're well aware that's not what I was saying. I was demonstrating the data Facebook makes available and what they build their Ad products out of.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#115

Post by shajznnckfke » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 6:33 PM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #114

shajznnckfke wrote: post #113

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait, you’re saying that Facebook allowing you to freely download your own data is selling dossiers? Complying with GDPR is wrongdoing, when Facebook does it?

You're well aware that's not what I was saying. I was demonstrating the data Facebook makes available and what they build their Ad products out of.

It sounds like Facebook is allowing advertisers who already have names and contact into for people (which is widely available info, so not too surprising that they have it), to target ads to those users. Is that what you meant by “selling dossiers”? That doesn’t sound like a dossier. I could see describing the user’s ability to download their own data as a dossier, but that’s just compliance with GDPR, not “selling dossiers”. I feel like there is some confusion happening here, where the data about yourself that you can download is being conflated with the name/contact info that the advertisers already have and use to buy ads, and these two separate things are being mixed together and described as “selling dossiers”.

To be clear: GDPR data you can download about yourself includes the information about the advertisers who already had your contact info. Those advertisers don’t get a copy of the GDPR data portability document.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#116

Post by giantrobot » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 8:47 PM UTC

shajznnckfke wrote: post #115

giantrobot wrote: post #114

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're well aware that's not what I was saying. I was demonstrating the data Facebook makes available and what they build their Ad products out of.

It sounds like Facebook is allowing advertisers who already have names and contact into for people (which is widely available info, so not too surprising that they have it), to target ads to those users. Is that what you meant by “selling dossiers”? That doesn’t sound like a dossier. I could see describing the user’s ability to download their own data as a dossier, but that’s just compliance with GDPR, not “selling d…

You're being willfully obtuse here. All of the data your GDPR documents is what Facebook builds their actual products out of. Facebook is selling advertisers and data brokers your social graph, browsing habits, and other details linked to extremely easily correlated selectors (e-mail, phone number, etc).

Insinuating Facebook is not selling a personal dossier because they don't attach a copy of your driver's license is ridiculous. Your relationships and activity are your personal identifiable details.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#117

Post by shajznnckfke » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 9:23 PM UTC

giantrobot wrote: post #116

shajznnckfke wrote: post #115

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like Facebook is allowing advertisers who already have names and contact into for people (which is widely available info, so not too surprising that they have it), to target ads to those users. Is that what you meant by “selling dossiers”? That doesn’t sound like a dossier. I could see describing the user’s ability to download their own data as a dossier, but that’s just compliance with GDPR, not “selling d…

You're being willfully obtuse here. All of the data your GDPR documents is what Facebook builds their actual products out of. Facebook is selling advertisers and data brokers your social graph, browsing habits, and other details linked to extremely easily correlated selectors (e-mail, phone number, etc). Insinuating Facebook is not selling a personal dossier because they don't attach a copy of your driver's license i…

Facebook sells ad space, not data. I think you have a misunderstanding about Facebook’s business. They don’t offer any product where you can pay to look at someone’s private data. There is no way to buy a dossier from Facebook, it’s simply not a product they sell. Maybe you’re thinking of background checking companies who actually provide that kind of service? I haven’t seen much protesting against them, and what they do seems pretty invasive!

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#118

Post by jariel » Mon, Aug 31, 2020, 11:10 PM UTC

FridgeSeal wrote: post #97

jariel wrote: post #91

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"If I'm on a page for a bit of sports equipment, I'm probably interested in sports equipment, or at the very least sports. Didn't need a complex data collection and analysis pipeline there." Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. The value of a vistor to a 'sports site' may be considerably more for some other product or service. The fact is - most content is placed on sites for which there is no obvious context: Face…

> Unfortunately, this simply isn't true. It quite literally is. I like mountain biking, if I go to Pinkbike (largest MTB news site), all the ads are for mountain biking products. If I'm there, I don't want to see ads for cloud services, or toasters, because that's literally not what I'm interested in at this point. > The value of a vistor to a 'sports site' may be considerably more for some other product or service.…

You are conflating 'targetting = harm' with the more broad concern of 'private information in private hands = harm'.

It's a huge stretch to say 'targetted ads disrupt elections'.

What if we could to 'perfect targetting' without invasion of privacy? Well, the 'Evil Russians' would still be able to try to use ads.

They are completely separate issues.

'The Russians' FYI mostly use FB pages, Reddit pages and fake groups to generate outrage, not just ads.

There isn't really specific harm to individuals by FB having this information. It 'feels' creepy, but it's really not a material issue. It's something we would rather not have, obviously, and there are elements of privacy we definitely don't want to give up (ie intimate moments haard by Alexa), but in general not something that's bad.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#119

Post by theklr » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 2:10 PM UTC

op03 wrote: post #65

aowerijwaerj wrote: post #37

Facebook is 21st-century cigarettes. Thousands of brilliant scientists and engineers testing and optimizing their product to be as addictive as possible. No concern for the effects on their users or on society. The only concern is making money. Just like with cigarettes, at first it was cool, then it became mainstream, then the dangers became better known, then the CEO was ordered to appear before Congress and gave a…

Cigarettes aren't free and haven't caused society to implode in every country on the planet. Dopamine on the other hand, that the Facebook cartel pushes through their Like counting, attention capturing/engagement maximizing algos is Free and Unlimited. If cigarettes were handed out for free and in unlimited quantities to everyone, for watching cat videos and accumulating Likes by insulting each other 24x7 then sure c…

Lol, clueless. Mark originally was going to school to study psychology. Something tells me this isn’t from being daft.

Re: Facebook isn’t happy about Apple’s upcoming ad tracking restrictions

#120

Post by theklr » Tue, Sep 01, 2020, 2:15 PM UTC

asadkn wrote: post #53

clement_b wrote: post #34

This is a tsunami for ad tech. Facebook just being the tip of the iceberg here. Tracking or not tracking is not really the topic here. Rather, this is yet another proof of how abusive Apple is. They claim killing IDFA is for the sake of users' privacy, while they do track users and their behavior and feed them sponsored search results on the App Store (via Apple Search Ads). This ability is just too good to share! Ap…

Seems like they have to overcompensate for the PR to appear as the good guys after all the PR damage they took lately. Nothing more, nothing less. Perfunctory privacy efforts.

What damage? Outside of here and tech/gaming sites, the Apple v. Epic Games slap fight is low on the zeitgeist, at least in the US. Outside of those tribes, no one knew about the case, or cared enough to want to know when I explained it to them.