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Italian Ruby

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Re: Italian Ruby

#111

Post by numpad0 »

StavrosK wrote: post #40
jaclaz wrote: post #23

Also, sometimes, translations have a different (perceived) meaning. A pet peeve of mine is "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto", and it is "fine" when other people already know the term, but otherways "difetto" is also the translation of "defect", and you will have a tough time explaining to a layman that it is not a "defect" in that other sense. Another "queer" word (I found it in the…

> translations have a different (perceived) meaning I think the problem you're running into is that you just aren't used to these words. I imagine people having the exact same complaints about a computer "mouse" actually reminding them of the animal or "paste" reminding them of glue, but once you get used to them they just become the terms for things.

Or maybe the problem is that translations are wrong, but appear correct if seen by English speaking person through reverse translations, because literal English-Italian translation mapping for said expressions happen to be robust and consistent within itself, despite being inconsistent with actual Italian language in actual real world context.

Re: Italian Ruby

#112

Post by est31 »

bobcostas55 wrote: post #110
rubber_duck wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I am really stoked for the future of programming languages, when localization is just a matter of translating some words. My experience with localised codebases (in my native language) have been horrifying - like it or not terminology is developed in EN, you either get unnatural sounding "borrow" words and the translation is pointless or worse you get people coining new terminology nobody but them understands. Not…

Under the hash system it would be trivial to change it back though. Of course it doesn't solve the problem of variable names...

And comments, and documentation, and stack overflow, and blog posts talking about your problem, and books, and so on. No, the cost caused by translation is not just solved by some function content hashing.

Re: Italian Ruby

#113

Post by casualrandomcom »

dragonwriter wrote: post #109
casualrandomcom wrote: post #106

Noting that "accessore" is not an Italian word was on the tip of my tongue (or, rather, fingers), when I realized that not even "accessor" is an English word. Terms used in programming languages are probably much more awkward in an English mother tongue's ears than in those of a foreigner. I wonder if "by default" had any meaning in English before it was adopted in the IT context.

“Accessor” is an English word. Sure, it originates in computing, but that doesn't make it any less part of the language.

I'll rephrase, Your Honor:

Even in English, "accessor" is a word that was rarely, if ever, used, before it was picked up in the programming languages jargon. So much that it has not made its way into some dictionaries, like Cambridge and Merriam-Webster.

Re: Italian Ruby

#114

Post by StavrosK »

numpad0 wrote: post #111
StavrosK wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> translations have a different (perceived) meaning I think the problem you're running into is that you just aren't used to these words. I imagine people having the exact same complaints about a computer "mouse" actually reminding them of the animal or "paste" reminding them of glue, but once you get used to them they just become the terms for things.

Or maybe the problem is that translations are wrong, but appear correct if seen by English speaking person through reverse translations, because literal English-Italian translation mapping for said expressions happen to be robust and consistent within itself, despite being inconsistent with actual Italian language in actual real world context.

If the term doesn't exist in Italian and you're translating it for the first time, it can't be wrong (by definition). I had never seen the Greek translation of "by default" in Greek, but now it's just one more computer term.

Re: Italian Ruby

#115

Post by marcosdumay »

jaclaz wrote: post #23

Also, sometimes, translations have a different (perceived) meaning. A pet peeve of mine is "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto", and it is "fine" when other people already know the term, but otherways "difetto" is also the translation of "defect", and you will have a tough time explaining to a layman that it is not a "defect" in that other sense. Another "queer" word (I found it in the…

"Moda" and "resto" are the standard names of those functions in mathematics. All the Latin languages have a similar name from them.

Re: Italian Ruby

#116

Post by hombre_fatal »

casualrandomcom wrote: post #102
jaclaz wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the dictionary of Repubblica (one of the main Italian Newspapers) authoritative enough? https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.h... Nowadays it is not used much, but it has been for years in texts related to IT, a reference: http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significat... BTW "per difetto" is also used in legal matters to mean "in mancanza"

No, that dictionary has lost all its authority with this, and no, I would not take texts related to IT as reference: those give the worst examples of bad translations. Take a look at this http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/ The only use of "per difetto" that existed before a translation of "by default" was ever needed is in the expression "approssimazione per difetto", and the new meaning forcefully attached…

On the other hand, the RAE has adopted that same expression from the same latin root into the Spanish language in the IT/computing category:

https://dle.rae.es/defecto

It's not something ridiculous out of left field.

Re: Italian Ruby

#117

Post by browsergap »

EdiX wrote: post #27
browsergap wrote: post #16

Only ~5% of Earth speaks English natively. Another 15% speak it as an nth language. I think English based programming is an anomaly that came out of the post-WWII US/UK cultural world order, and from that sustained economic boom came modern computers, languages and the internet to a mass market. 20% of the world speaks Mandarin Chinese (not all as a first language tho). And, about the same % as speak English natively…

> 20% of the world speaks Mandarin Chinese (not all as a first language tho). And, about the same % as speak English natively, speak Hindi (+ dialects) natively, and again about the same amount speak Arabic, and again about the same amount (all above 300 million) speak French, tho a greater % of those have le français as an nth language. What are your sources for this because cross checking with wikipedia, which uses…

Really? You're gonna fight over some discrepancies in sources, as if that changes things.

The main point is that there are huge numbers of people who speak these languages and there's nothing special about programming and English beside history.

I disagree with your conclusion from your [1]. Any of those groups could create code based on their own languages. There's nothing at all logical about English.

For my sources, just type "X speakers" or "X speakers in the world" into google and the infobox results is what I use.

Your wikipedia source is way outta date. 1.12 Bn Chinese speakers? Come on. China's population is ~ 1.5 Bn now (was 1.4 in 2018).

French is 270 million. Sorry I said above 300m, but it's within 100% of the number that speak English natively, is what I was saying.

Re: Italian Ruby

#118

Post by earthboundkid »

jaclaz wrote: post #23

Also, sometimes, translations have a different (perceived) meaning. A pet peeve of mine is "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto", and it is "fine" when other people already know the term, but otherways "difetto" is also the translation of "defect", and you will have a tough time explaining to a layman that it is not a "defect" in that other sense. Another "queer" word (I found it in the…

Even within English, a lot of the terms we use are kind of unnatural. I had an American professor once who complained about the use of the term "default" in computing. "Default" is what the bank does when it runs out of money. What does that have to do with me choosing something in the computer?

Similarly, a "file" is a bundle of papers, not an individual document. A "program" lists things that will happen in a performance, but it's not an instruction sheet. An "application" is a form that you fill in for a bureaucrat. Etc.

Re: Italian Ruby

#119

Post by browsergap »

TulliusCicero wrote: post #42
browsergap wrote: post #16

Only ~5% of Earth speaks English natively. Another 15% speak it as an nth language. I think English based programming is an anomaly that came out of the post-WWII US/UK cultural world order, and from that sustained economic boom came modern computers, languages and the internet to a mass market. 20% of the world speaks Mandarin Chinese (not all as a first language tho). And, about the same % as speak English natively…

Programming and English a natural match, no. Programming and a global language, or the global language as a natural match, maybe. There's nothing super special within English itself that makes it particularly well suited for programming, but the fact that it's the global language of business, tourism, air travel, diplomacy, etc. makes a good case for it. English has far, far more non-native speakers than any other la…

That's not actually true tho.

Chinese Mandarin has ~ the same number of speakers as all English speakers, it's just your Englo-centric bias that makes you see the world in your skewed way, where English is the center of everything, which is exactly what I'm railing against (in English no less)!

It does have international currency, but that's blurrier than you might think. French and Arabic both have enormous regional currency in EMEA. It's not the only candidate. Spanish in South America. There's plenty of places where English is few and far between (try Japan).

But the point is, even if you can say it's global (which it's not if you're taking a truly global perspective and thinking you can "go anywhere and speak English and you'll be operating fine!"), so what? There's huge populations of people who are not speaking English and they're just as good programmers, so why not have programming languages arising from their language? It's a possibility.

It's a historical accident that English with coding, that's all.

Re: Italian Ruby

#120

Post by browsergap »

devit wrote: post #88
browsergap wrote: post #16

Only ~5% of Earth speaks English natively. Another 15% speak it as an nth language. I think English based programming is an anomaly that came out of the post-WWII US/UK cultural world order, and from that sustained economic boom came modern computers, languages and the internet to a mass market. 20% of the world speaks Mandarin Chinese (not all as a first language tho). And, about the same % as speak English natively…

Written English is by far the best language among the globally popular ones and the European languages because it's easier to learn due to its small alphabet with no special ligature rules, small frequently used vocabulary, and low number of word variants. Spoken English is not so good due to complex and unintuitive pronunciation, but that's not very relevant nowadays where most media is text (and also, it would be e…

I think that's good logic about suitability, but it shouldn't mean it's universally the only language that programming languages use. By the same logic, I think an argument could be made for Japanese. Or Korean!
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