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Italian Ruby

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Re: Italian Ruby

#101

Post by dragonwriter »

pizza234 wrote: post #58
remix2000 wrote: post #33

Related stuff: * Claim that word order in Japanese suits ST-style message-passing OOP better than English: https://thoughtbot.com/blog/learning-japanese-the-rubyist-wa... * APL, a language that uses symbols instead of keywords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language) * Non-English-based PLs on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_... * How does English proficiency co…

> * How does English proficiency correlate with programming mastery: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277097932_A_CORRELA... . I find this conceptually wrong, at least, based on the abstract. They're looking for a correlation: > This research is conducted to find out whether the learners' English proficiency correlates or affects the learners' ability or mastery in writing a computer program which is appropri…

> implies causation, which contradicts their intent.

“affects”, as stated in the intent, is the same as causation, so, no, it doesn't “contradict” the intent.

You may believe that their results only properly support correlation and not causation, but causation was clearly within the stated intended scope of the research.

Re: Italian Ruby

#102

Post by casualrandomcom »

jaclaz wrote: post #85
casualrandomcom wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am appalled. " "by default". In Italian it is translated (correctly) "per difetto" " Correctly? Not at all! Please don't take as given Google Translate's translations.

Is the dictionary of Repubblica (one of the main Italian Newspapers) authoritative enough? https://dizionari.repubblica.it/Inglese-Italiano/D/default.h... Nowadays it is not used much, but it has been for years in texts related to IT, a reference: http://vietatoridere.blogspot.com/2012/06/default-significat... BTW "per difetto" is also used in legal matters to mean "in mancanza"

No, that dictionary has lost all its authority with this, and no, I would not take texts related to IT as reference: those give the worst examples of bad translations.

Take a look at this http://www.treccani.it/vocabolario/difetto/

The only use of "per difetto" that existed before a translation of "by default" was ever needed is in the expression "approssimazione per difetto", and the new meaning forcefully attached to "per difetto" makes sense only in the worst nightmares after a "peperonata co' e cozze".

Picchi probably is only witness of a niche neologism, that was probably bred from a bad technical translation. But it was a bad neologism in the first place, it was incorrect right from the start.

EDIT Nevertheless I take your point: you did your research before you wrote "correctly".

Re: Italian Ruby

#103

Post by dragonwriter »

pizza234 wrote: post #77
kapakos wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Germans are dubbing and they usually speak English quite well. My experience with Italian as well as French don’t like to learn or speak English.

Germany is a bit more complex, because historically speaking, there has been cultural separation. In my experience: - middle aged people speak an ok english - elderly speak a poor or no english - young people speak a very good one Something also worth considering is, as I've previously mentioned, the exposure to international traffic. In big German cities, there are a lot of foreigners; much less in Italy. Finally, i…

> that German has (some) roots in the English language.

More accurately, English, like German, is a Germanic language. German doesn't have roots in English.

Re: Italian Ruby

#104

Post by bfabio »

I'm having Vietnam-style flashbacks right now, courtesy of Excel's localization.

Please don't ever use it in production, ever.

Re: Italian Ruby

#105

Post by est31 »

rubber_duck wrote: post #99
roflc0ptic wrote: post #87

There's this absolutely mind bending idea that is - every single function should have a unique identifier. Which is to say: def square(x: Int): Int = x * x should get hashed (and if it has dependencies, they should get hashed in there, too), and your programming language should track the unique identity of this function, and keep a list of names separately from the hashes. This totally solves the localization problem…

> I am really stoked for the future of programming languages, when localization is just a matter of translating some words. My experience with localised codebases (in my native language) have been horrifying - like it or not terminology is developed in EN, you either get unnatural sounding "borrow" words and the translation is pointless or worse you get people coining new terminology nobody but them understands. Not…

Yeah world languages like Chinese, Russian, Arabic have a chance of building their own thriving developer communities, but for a language like Italian, or even German, forget it. It's too small to be up to a language with 10 times as many speakers. Writing in the local language would put you at a disadvantage far more than you are at a disadvantage by being second speaker of a language.

Re: Italian Ruby

#106

Post by casualrandomcom »

Noting that "accessore" is not an Italian word was on the tip of my tongue (or, rather, fingers), when I realized that not even "accessor" is an English word.

Terms used in programming languages are probably much more awkward in an English mother tongue's ears than in those of a foreigner.

I wonder if "by default" had any meaning in English before it was adopted in the IT context.

Re: Italian Ruby

#107

Post by Pet_Ant »

rubber_duck wrote: post #99
roflc0ptic wrote: post #87

There's this absolutely mind bending idea that is - every single function should have a unique identifier. Which is to say: def square(x: Int): Int = x * x should get hashed (and if it has dependencies, they should get hashed in there, too), and your programming language should track the unique identity of this function, and keep a list of names separately from the hashes. This totally solves the localization problem…

> I am really stoked for the future of programming languages, when localization is just a matter of translating some words. My experience with localised codebases (in my native language) have been horrifying - like it or not terminology is developed in EN, you either get unnatural sounding "borrow" words and the translation is pointless or worse you get people coining new terminology nobody but them understands. Not…

> I dread every time I see Chinese in a codebase (simply because they are a large enough market to split the dev community)

They aren't going to split it, the rest of us will adapt. English was arbitrary, so was French and Latin and Greek before it. Probably in the form of some Romaji-like equivalent (ideograms are too high a bar) but we will start to adopt it. The largest economy dictates the lingua franca because they produce the most output.

Re: Italian Ruby

#108

Post by [deleted] »

efferifick wrote: post #97
roflc0ptic wrote: post #94

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's an interesting question that I don't have an answer to. I don't actually know what this technique is called - I heard about in passing at lambda conf, and just saw last week that Unison is using it. The unison crew is super friendly (Runar once patiently spent 20 minutes trying to explain adjunctions to me, a perfect stranger). I'll ask in their slack channel if this has a name.

Thanks! I'll try to join their slack after work :)

[deleted]

Re: Italian Ruby

#109

Post by dragonwriter »

casualrandomcom wrote: post #106

Noting that "accessore" is not an Italian word was on the tip of my tongue (or, rather, fingers), when I realized that not even "accessor" is an English word. Terms used in programming languages are probably much more awkward in an English mother tongue's ears than in those of a foreigner. I wonder if "by default" had any meaning in English before it was adopted in the IT context.

“Accessor” is an English word. Sure, it originates in computing, but that doesn't make it any less part of the language.

Re: Italian Ruby

#110

Post by bobcostas55 »

rubber_duck wrote: post #99
roflc0ptic wrote: post #87

There's this absolutely mind bending idea that is - every single function should have a unique identifier. Which is to say: def square(x: Int): Int = x * x should get hashed (and if it has dependencies, they should get hashed in there, too), and your programming language should track the unique identity of this function, and keep a list of names separately from the hashes. This totally solves the localization problem…

> I am really stoked for the future of programming languages, when localization is just a matter of translating some words. My experience with localised codebases (in my native language) have been horrifying - like it or not terminology is developed in EN, you either get unnatural sounding "borrow" words and the translation is pointless or worse you get people coining new terminology nobody but them understands. Not…

Under the hash system it would be trivial to change it back though. Of course it doesn't solve the problem of variable names...
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