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Italian Ruby

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Re: Italian Ruby

#51

No intention to be rude but the Readme page doesn’t seem written by somebody native. I understand that English is basically the only language for technical writing but writing that bad in Italian defies the purpose of this Gem altogether.

It seems fine to me, there is nothing in it that makes me think it was written by a non native speaker.

Re: Italian Ruby

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You simply can’t be effective in programming without knowing English. Having few words translated in your language wouldn’t help much. Moreover it is much easier to learn English than learning how to code.

> Moreover it is much easier to learn English than learning how to code. I know many, many people who would disagree.

Human languages are intuitive, share some aspects and we have centuries of knowledge on how to learn them. Programming is still a relatively new activity in comparison and requires a set of knowledge that you don’t already get in your youth like speaking does. I also know basic Greek and I can swear it was easier to learn than coding at a professional level.

Re: Italian Ruby

#53
post #32

The thing is most Italian schools don’t do a great job at teaching English [1]. Students either pay for courses, self-study, or forget. I’m Italian and I don’t agree with the author’s premise that non-native speakers have an additional translation layer (e.g. Italian -> English -> Ruby). It depends on your knowledge of the English language. As you master the language your brain becomes better at context switching; yo…

You simply can’t be effective in programming without knowing English. Having few words translated in your language wouldn’t help much. Moreover it is much easier to learn English than learning how to code.

Based on what do you say this? I have my browser set to non-geographically specific, and when I ask programming questions to it, there are many, many answers in chinese and japanese. If the programming languages statements themselves were in those languages, a chinese or japanese speaker (in my field) would not need english at all.

Re: Italian Ruby

#54
post #32

The thing is most Italian schools don’t do a great job at teaching English [1]. Students either pay for courses, self-study, or forget. I’m Italian and I don’t agree with the author’s premise that non-native speakers have an additional translation layer (e.g. Italian -> English -> Ruby). It depends on your knowledge of the English language. As you master the language your brain becomes better at context switching; yo…

> We should fix our schools, A large part of the english language problem in the southern Europe (it's not just an italian problem) is cultural. The english language is considerably more embedded in the culture of the northern European countries; for example, there's considerably less dubbing. If Italy stopped dubbing (which will never happen, because it's a tradition), italians would speak a considerably better Engl…

You make good points, especially this one: “without significant immersion, it's hard to improve or retain a language meaningfully.”

It also does not help that YMMV depending on what region or city you’re living in.

Re: Italian Ruby

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Moreover it is much easier to learn English than learning how to code. I know many, many people who would disagree.

Human languages are intuitive, share some aspects and we have centuries of knowledge on how to learn them. Programming is still a relatively new activity in comparison and requires a set of knowledge that you don’t already get in your youth like speaking does. I also know basic Greek and I can swear it was easier to learn than coding at a professional level.

You can't compare basic Greek to professional coding, learning Greek well enough to make a living from it (translation/writing/etc) is what you should compare to. Learning basic Greek is definitely harder than basic coding, and a language's difficulty also depends on where you're coming from (Portuguese is going to be much easier for Spaniards than for Greeks).

Re: Italian Ruby

#57

No intention to be rude but the Readme page doesn’t seem written by somebody native. I understand that English is basically the only language for technical writing but writing that bad in Italian defies the purpose of this Gem altogether.

It seems fine to me, there is nothing in it that makes me think it was written by a non native speaker.

You are a kinder person than me :). I totally agree with eecc. Even just the punctuation is bizarre to say the least.

Re: Italian Ruby

#58

Related stuff: * Claim that word order in Japanese suits ST-style message-passing OOP better than English: https://thoughtbot.com/blog/learning-japanese-the-rubyist-wa... * APL, a language that uses symbols instead of keywords: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/APL_(programming_language) * Non-English-based PLs on Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-English-based_programming_... * How does English proficiency co…

> * How does English proficiency correlate with programming mastery: https://www.researchgate.net/publication/277097932_A_CORRELA....

I find this conceptually wrong, at least, based on the abstract.

They're looking for a correlation:

> This research is conducted to find out whether the learners' English proficiency correlates or affects the learners' ability or mastery in writing a computer program

which is appropriate, but their conclusion:

> The result of this study can be used as a consideration in improving the teaching of English for Informatics Engineering learners

implies causation, which contradicts their intent.

My point is - there are a lot of variables at play, the simplest being that people who are good in spoken languages, are naturally inclined to learn a computer language (d'oh).

I think a very interesting way to make the research more rigorous, would have been to test with a non-english programming language (although, based on their approach, that would require a whole semester).

Am I missing something?

Re: Italian Ruby

#59
post #32

The thing is most Italian schools don’t do a great job at teaching English [1]. Students either pay for courses, self-study, or forget. I’m Italian and I don’t agree with the author’s premise that non-native speakers have an additional translation layer (e.g. Italian -> English -> Ruby). It depends on your knowledge of the English language. As you master the language your brain becomes better at context switching; yo…

This would enable kids to learn programming soon after they learn to write. Could bring the country some competetive advantage. Now the country is at a disadvantage compared to many others because people don't know English very well and that additionally hurts the ability to pick up programming.

Re: Italian Ruby

#60
post #32

The thing is most Italian schools don’t do a great job at teaching English [1]. Students either pay for courses, self-study, or forget. I’m Italian and I don’t agree with the author’s premise that non-native speakers have an additional translation layer (e.g. Italian -> English -> Ruby). It depends on your knowledge of the English language. As you master the language your brain becomes better at context switching; yo…

While I agree that decent English skills are a great thing to have in today's world, you can still escape English quite well, at least in Germany, as long as you don't go into IT, scientific research and simliar niches that do require English; it's taught reasonably well in schools, so most people speak at least some English, but I guess most hardly ever need it. > The technology sector speaks English. You can’t esca…

I should have been more precise. My comment focused on those who want to get in IT and scientific research, or wherever English is a must.

I didn’t specify it because of the submission being about programming. My bad.

Anyway, yes, your experience matches mine in Italy.

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