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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#971

Post by nodamage »

bmitc wrote: post #968
nodamage wrote: post #277

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am not sure why this fallacy continues to be repeated in every Apple thread. Apple currently has 46% US market share [1] and 14% global market share [2]. This is far from monopoly power. By contrast, Microsoft had 95% market share during their antitrust suit. [3] [1] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/us-market-smartphone-sh... [2] https://www.counterpointresearch.com/global-smartphone-share... [3] https://schola…

Are monopolies strictly and solely defined by market share and not power and influence on the market in addition to abuses done through that power and influence? Defining monopolies only by market shares seems to be an outdated view. Things are different now. Even with that definition though, there is definitely a duopoly.

Strictly speaking, no. Monopoly power has been defined by the Supreme Court as the "power to control prices and exclude competition" and it is not based on a specific market share threshold. However, courts tend to start by examining market share in determining how much power a company has in a given market, and (as I posted in a sibling comment) they typically do not find monopoly power when a company has less than 50% of the market.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#972

Post by paconbork »

shmel wrote: post #941
AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

I am so amused that this debate is very American centered all while American physical stores can't figure out how to include taxes into displayed price. And everybody is okay with that.

Businesses are incentivized to not include taxes in the price since there's no laws against it, everyone else does it, and it lets them advertise better prices then they actually have. Personally, the practice really irks me and my small act of rebellion is that I pay in cash if tax is included in the price and by card if it's not. I wish people cared about it more but I suppose there's just more important things to worry about

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#973

Post by II2II »

AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

It is a messy issue.

Without the in app purchase fees, developers could (and would) give away the app and take all of the revenues.

With the in app purchase fees, developers (rightfully) feel as though Apple is taking a cut for something they they did not sell.

If apps sold for $40 or $80 each, Apple would have a much harder time justifying the commission on in app purchases. The motivation to do so would still be there, but the pressure from consumers may have more bearing on the rates (though I doubt they would eliminate them).

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#974

Post by ThatPlayer »

RightTail wrote: post #934
ThatPlayer wrote: post #328

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This doesn't completely work because of all the missing features that Apple's iOS Safari does not implement. And you cannot even get a different browser (engine), because of Apple's App Store rules. Off the top of my head, iOS Safari doesn't support notifications or (at least on iPhone) fullscreen API. Surprisingly there is controller support https://caniuse.com/#feat=fullscreen

So this couldn't be done in a different browser to the best of your knowledge?

It could be done in a different browser that supports these features, of course. But on iOS, there is no other browser, and Apple prevent any other browser from being put onto the App Store. Chrome and Firefox on iOS is just a skin around iOS Safari with bookmark syncing features. They have no ability to implement these features on iOS.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#975

Post by nodamage »

m00x wrote: post #775
mattmanser wrote: post #504

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

Microsoft didn't have a monopoly on computers, yet it was guilty of pushing all their users to use their apps over others. Apple and Google are the only major phone OS's. If they control what you can install on your phone, they have a monopoly. > Wallmart choose their suppliers, and sets the markup, why can't Apple? You're really comparing setting up a physical store to building world class operating system and phone…

Microsoft had a monopoly over the operating system market (95% market share).

> If they control what you can install on your phone, they have a monopoly.

That's not how monopoly power is (legally) defined.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#976

Post by donmcronald »

vr46 wrote: post #882
paulgb wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company like Spotify sells subscriptions both in the app and on the web, they have to charge 43% more to the in-app purchaser to get the same revenue, even though the user gets exactly the same experience. I would call that a tax (informally; I know it strictly doesn't meet the definition) and as a customer I would like to know about it.

As a Spotify subscriber, I don’t really care, because it’s their job to handle their overheads, in the same way that John Lewis on Oxford Street pays different rent to John Lewis in Kingston (probably) but the prices stay the same. Cost of doing business is a thing. Capex and Opex are well-understood by businesses, or should be. If the Spotify web store is more profitable than the Spotify iOS store, because Apple wan…

> If the Spotify web store is more profitable than the Spotify iOS store, because Apple wants ITS CUSTOMERS to get the same deal and Spotify wants those customers, then this is good and fair for customers at the point of purchase.

Are you saying you think Spotify should just charge everyone extra and take extra profit from Android customers? As an Android user, why should I pay extra so you can use an iPhone?

Assume me and you are the only 2 users on Spotify and they need $10 per user in revenue. As far as I'm concerned, I should pay $10 and you should pay $14.29. Apple gets $4.29 (14.29 * .3) and Spotify gets $20.

If Spotify can't differentiate and has to charge every user the same, they won't charge everyone $14.29 because they're in a competitive industry and keeping the cost to the customer as low as possible is important. It's more likely they'll charge us both $12.15 and call it $10 average revenue per customer.

If Epic's lawsuit accomplishes only one thing, I hope Apple is forced to allow developers to advertise and charge different prices for iOS users. If you think iOS is worth +43% on everything you buy on your phone you're welcome to pay that IMO. I don't want to and I'm happy with Android.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#977

Post by beaner »

vr46 wrote: post #951
beaner wrote: post #942

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Many a company is upset that they have no leverage in a business deal and want to courts to hand it to them. I think Epic does actually have a lot of leverage. They have clout. They're a popular, widely respected company and founder. They could easily organize a strike, where large companies frustrated by this exploitative fee all pull their apps and publicly say "move to Android" or something. Probably the fear of…

The tactic is not very good at all. Respect and popularity doesn't get you much further than inside the front door in business, it certainly doesn't get you free money. It is quite sad to see this happen, because they had a great relationship at some point, Infinity Blade was an outstanding series and mutually beneficial. I also can't believe that all of us give s shit about this issue too and we're here discussing i…

I think we're pretty far off on our interpretations here, and you don't explain why you think the tactic isn't good. Epic is not asking for free money. And they wouldn't be asking for free help, either. This is clearly an issue that is impactful to other large companies in the app store, and they would simply be coming together to negotiate rather than stranded on their own. Hacker news is full of developers, that's part of the reason people care about this issue. Epic's problem could be our problem, too. Nobody wants to be exploited.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#978

Post by adjkant »

isatty wrote: post #824
gandutraveler wrote: post #812

Maybe a naive question but why doesn't Apple take 30% commission on my Robinhood trades. And how is that exchange of money for stock, digital currency different from apps like Fortnite

I don’t use Robinhood but I doubt you’re funding your account through the app? Shouldn’t it be a bank transfer/CC through their website?

You can directly fund you account in the app, no website needed.

I think the real answer here is that Apple considers a stock a physical good.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#979

Post by bobdole12345 »

smichel17 wrote: post #623
bobdole12345 wrote: post #570

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, it's really unfair that the farmer got so angry when I was banging his daughter while staying at his house. I don't think I should have to listen to the farmers rules when he's got such a sweet daughter there.

I think this is a surprisingly good analogy. Let's make it explicit (now in two ways) -- the daughter here seems to represent iPhone owners. So, getting to the crux of the disagreement -- the way you've stated it, fair enough. What about when the farmer is actually the owner and landlord of just over half the homes in the US? Assuming enthusiastic consent from the daughter to [play Fortnite], it's not so reasonable t…

I think you're missing the signed agreements by all parties involved not to do the thing that the farmer is angry about.

You're just going to ignore contract law because lots of people wanted the thing, but not to do what they agreed?

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#980

Post by RightTail »

ThatPlayer wrote: post #974
RightTail wrote: post #934

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So this couldn't be done in a different browser to the best of your knowledge?

It could be done in a different browser that supports these features, of course. But on iOS, there is no other browser, and Apple prevent any other browser from being put onto the App Store. Chrome and Firefox on iOS is just a skin around iOS Safari with bookmark syncing features. They have no ability to implement these features on iOS.

You sure? There seem to be a few others such as Dolphin, iCab etc.
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