Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#941

Post by shmel » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

I am so amused that this debate is very American centered all while American physical stores can't figure out how to include taxes into displayed price. And everybody is okay with that.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#942

Post by beaner » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 5:26 PM UTC

vr46 wrote: post #861

AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

The word "tax", when referring to Apple's fees, is a loaded and partial term. The fact that it's clear and understood and factored into the price makes it easy to complain about, but no casual customer to my knowledge has ever seriously asked what proportion of their peppermint tea and scones pays for a café's rent - overheads are overheads and margins are margins. Both companies are invoking consumers and value in t…

> Many a company is upset that they have no leverage in a business deal and want to courts to hand it to them.

I think Epic does actually have a lot of leverage. They have clout. They're a popular, widely respected company and founder. They could easily organize a strike, where large companies frustrated by this exploitative fee all pull their apps and publicly say "move to Android" or something.

Probably the fear of such a strike itself would lead to negotiations. It would just be embarrassing. Apple would not want to be the phone without any of the apps that people want. Who would buy that? And it doesn't matter that Android currently has the same fees, because they just copy Apple and would also change after such a strike wins out.

It's not just the companies though. I've heard others online say "the company doesn't have to sue, there's probably a free market solution," 90% of the people I know shout BAD TAKE! and assume that it must/should be decided in the courts.

The saddest part to me is just the total lack of creativity. There is a way to do it without suing and it would probably even be more impactful, because Apple would know that it is wrong when it loses. Rather than simply feeling that it has to comply with a law, it would know that developers themselves have negotiating power and there is a reasonable point of exploitation that Apple has long since passed.

I wish the Epic guy would consider this.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#943

Post by archibaldJ » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 5:34 PM UTC

I believe the psychology behind making an e-payment comes in many forms. If you really want to listen to music ads-free on Spotify you will pay for Spotify even if it means going outside of the app. On the other hand if it is the type of payment that is more on-a-whim in nature, etc, then perhaps it’s justifiable for the os (i.e. whereon the experience runs) to take a fair share.

As an iOS developer who started writing Obj-C 8 years ago and witnessed and felt first-handed the overall evolution of the language environment (which subsequently led to the birth of Swift and its continuation into what I considered to be the most interesting thing about Apple now), I think 30% is fair considering it has and would continue to contribute to (and in some sense incentivise) Apple’s decision in allocating (what occured to me as) an amazing amount of resources in improving the iOS (and Swift) developer experience.

Great languages (and great developer experiences) don’t come cheap. And I won’t be surprised if the top executives of a multi-billion video game company fails to realise that.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#944

Post by alerighi » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 5:44 PM UTC

risyachka wrote: post #647

akira2501 wrote: post #298

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> No matter what opinion one holds on mobile store rules, they are their rules and so far you have the choice of following them (which is also somewhat iffy) or not being on the store. A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be. > Separate the issues and angles and see it for what it is: just a bunch of legal departm…

> A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be. If you think about it it's not really valid. Retailers take a big cut of the price to sell your product and its legal. The rules were defined many years ago, and its a free world - don't like it - don't buy it. Why would it be illegal?

You don't see the real problem: the device that you buy (paying a lot of money in case of an iPhone) is not really yours. You can install the apps that Apple approves. To me that is unacceptable and should be made illegal. When the user buys a phone he expect it to be able to use it with all the software that he wants, and not to be limited of what Apple approves. If not let's write it with a big red font on the box and see how many people buy iPhones anymore...

The problem is not the fee that the App Store imposes to you. The problem is that you don't have an alternative, either you accept the fee that Apple imposes to you or iPhone users have no way to use your software (beside jailbreak). And since cutting out iPhone users is unacceptable for all companies you either have to accept the Apple policy or respond to thusands of angry customers that asks why the app is only available for Android or the iPhone version of the app has not all the feature of the Android one (since the final user usually don't know that there are these restriction in place).

On Android if you don't agree with the Google Play policy you can simply let the user download the apk from your website and install it manually on your phone. Granted, you loose the visibility that you have on the Play Store and you have to implement updates and push notifications manually without relying on the Play Service.

Or you can choose of distribuiting your software trough an alternative App Store, that the user can install on its phone like any other application.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#945

Post by raiyu » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:02 PM UTC

It’s not rent because when a mall rents out space to apple they do it by sq ft. They don’t charge them on a percent of revenue. Imagine every mall did that instead.

If its a credit card processing fee that should be 2-3%. With value added services maybe 10-15% but that would be the ceiling.

Apple charges these fees because they can.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#946

Post by yyyk » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:05 PM UTC

vr46 wrote: post #882

paulgb wrote: post #869

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If a company like Spotify sells subscriptions both in the app and on the web, they have to charge 43% more to the in-app purchaser to get the same revenue, even though the user gets exactly the same experience. I would call that a tax (informally; I know it strictly doesn't meet the definition) and as a customer I would like to know about it.

As a Spotify subscriber, I don’t really care, because it’s their job to handle their overheads, in the same way that John Lewis on Oxford Street pays different rent to John Lewis in Kingston (probably) but the prices stay the same. Cost of doing business is a thing. Capex and Opex are well-understood by businesses, or should be. If the Spotify web store is more profitable than the Spotify iOS store, because Apple wan…

As a Spotify subscriber, you may wish to be familiar with Spotify's site on Apple’s anti-competitive behavior:

https://www.timetoplayfair.com/

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#947

Post by wrsh07 » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:08 PM UTC

_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I agree, and while I don't think there's a great chance Epic wins in court, I think now is a great time for them to highlight Apple's deeply unethical practices around the app store: they are both stifling innovation (in what an app store can do or be, see Microsoft x cloud, but also see how long it took Apple to develop subscription payments) and pocketing money they really haven't done anything to earn (rent seeking)

Ultimately, I think lawmakers are going to have to be the ones to address this, and it's disappointing they don't seem particularly interested in investigating Apple's app store practices

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#948

Post by pier25 » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:16 PM UTC

abc-xyz wrote: post #932

pier25 wrote: post #925

Earlier quoted context omitted.

MacOS is open and doesn't have those issues.

Actually they do, and the reason for that is precisely because they allow third-party installations on Macs, and the exact same thing would happen to iPhones if they allowed third-party installations there as well. > Adware has become much more aggressive in 2019, heavily targeting consumer and business endpoints on Windows, Mac, and Android devices. A new team of the most active adware families have replaced the top…

That report is about users that willingly install malware.

If you're arguing that iOS should prevent ignorance too, then by that logic it should prevent users from receiving emails because of possible scams.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#949

Post by maitredusoi » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:24 PM UTC

AsyncAwait wrote: post #841

I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves, yet I also think that the comments here overstate how "aware" average people are about Apple's restrictions, tax etc. I don't think most people would consider direct payment to reputable companies like Epic to be a particular security risk. I don't think most realize why they can't subscribe to Spotify from their iPhones, they think it's s…

> I don't think Epic is doing anything but trying to pocket more for themselves

I agree this is the best cheapest advertising Epic has ever done !!!

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#950

Post by dang » Sat, Aug 29, 2020, 6:29 PM UTC

twirlock wrote: post #411

dang wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a stub comment to collect the replies so we can collapse them, to prevent offtopicness. Sorry, no-JS users.

Oh now suddenly shills exist.

Not shills—fans.

Real shilling/astroturfing is a different phenomenon. It certainly exists, but from everything I've looked at, it's orders of magnitude less common than fans making up bogus accusations about shilling.