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Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

macrumors.com

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Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#771

Post by markvdb »

Network effects are a symptom of the internet. They yield incredibly strong market control. Very few economic actors run extreme profit margins at giant scale [0][1]. They extract a disproportional profit share from the market economy. Apple is just one of them.

Is this sustainable? Will these players stay happy just extracting profits and eating small innovative players for breakfast? Is the market economy strong enough not to succumb to their lobbying power?

To me, it's clear that as the general public, we don't benefit from this situation. In the best case scenario, we're overpaying for all things information. I think something should be done about this, but what? Suggestions welcome, because I don't have answers yet. In the meantime, I try to stay clear of the molochs.

[0] As a symptom, Apple, Microsoft, Alphabet, Facebook and Amazon's combined market cap equals 75% of the entire EU stock market. Read their annual reports to understand where thet extract their profits.

[1] https://www.businessinsider.in/stock-market/news/the-us-tech... .

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#772

Post by robmaister »

JiNCMG wrote: post #714
wsc981 wrote: post #692

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt Apple could or would really want to ban the Unreal engine, right? I guess at some point Epic could create a new Apple account again (perhaps after some court order by a judge) and just continue testing their engine on devices. They don't need to release games themselves on the AppStore, as long as 3rd party devs can release software based on the Unreal engine on the AppStore. I think what Epic wants to see go…

App Store takes the same 30% as Xbox, Sony, Switch, Target, Walmart, Walgreen, etc... Purchase a console game at Walmart? Walmart takes their cut after the console creator took their cut. In fact if you think your game is gonna sell like crazy that you press (DVD/BluRay) 1 million copies, you are in debt to the Console manufacturer for their 30%.

Retailers take far less than 30%. Consoles provide first-party QA, disc/cartridge manufacturing and distribution, bandwidth, and customer service among other services. Whole apps on the mobile stores also have similar services provided by the platform - testing (nowhere near as rigorous as consoles), discovery, bandwidth, customer service, etc. In both cases, a large cut can be reasonably argued for.

IAP is nothing more than moving money around, in an app the user has already discovered and downloaded, that will affect a user's account on the developer's servers. The service to the end user is indistinguishable to what is provided by any other payment gateway for ~3% (Stripe, Square, Paypal, etc.) Your card is charged and you have something new in the app.

The only reason I can think of for why IAP takes the same cut as whole apps is that most if not all apps would be "free" but open up to a screen that makes you pay for the app via IAP to take advantage of the reduced fee.

This could be mitigated by ToS restrictions preventing this exact situation, but there would still be a ton of gray area like "pro" versions of apps.

Opening up to third-party payment processors for IAP would create a vacuum in one of their highest margin and most consistent revenue sources so they won't be doing that willingly. Opening up to third-party stores would be more tolerable but any sufficiently large developer will move to their own store and do everything themselves and pocket the ~27.5% (if they are their own payment gateway, interchange fees are ~2.5%)

It's an interesting situation because the platforms want to be paid for all the services I listed above, but in Epic's case they already have the infrastructure to handle everything on their own, and they offer a fully-featured game for free, with the only source of revenue being a conversion of actual money to V-Bucks.

There is no place where the platform can provide a service that Epic would get any value from, but they are imposing a 30% fee in the only place they can, payment processing.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#773

Post by ric2b »

gameswithgo wrote: post #38
oneplane wrote: post #20

Not sure why people are surprised or consider it giant news. > The court recommended that Epic follow the App Store’s guidelines and policies while the case is in progress – the rules they followed over the past ten years until they created the current situation themselves. Epic refused. Well duh, this is a show match court fight of Epic Games not liking the rules and not getting the special treatment they want. No m…

people familiar with Tim Sweeny’s life and ideology know that it is an actual important issues to him that platforms be open. your cynical take is often very true but there are sometimes real human ideals behind things.

I wonder why his company mostly ignores Linux then.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#774

Post by qeternity »

werecat wrote: post #668
risyachka wrote: post #647

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> A valid opinion is that those rules are illegal under current federal statue. Another one is that although they currently aren't, they should be. If you think about it it's not really valid. Retailers take a big cut of the price to sell your product and its legal. The rules were defined many years ago, and its a free world - don't like it - don't buy it. Why would it be illegal?

The problem is there is no alternative to the App Store on iPhones. Epic Games couldn't open their own Epic Games App Store and sell their games there because Apple has a complete control over how apps can be used and sold on iPhones.

There doesn’t need to be an alternative App Store in iOS. There just need to be alternatives to iOS.

This whole “Apple have a monopoly inside their own product” is an absurd line of questioning when their product has anything but a monopoly. This argument is akin to saying that Disney has a monopoly on hotdog sales inside Disneyland and should be forced to allow competitors to open hotdog stands inside Disneyland.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#775

Post by m00x »

mattmanser wrote: post #504
_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

I can't see how Epic wins this. If Stripe can claim Wells Fargo doesn't want to process porn payments, and that's legal, how can an American court rule for Epic? Epic are obviously going to lose, and lose hard, or set a precedent that's going to screw every payment provider in America and open a flood gate for fraudulent payments. You can't force someone to sell something they don't want to, especially because Apple…

Microsoft didn't have a monopoly on computers, yet it was guilty of pushing all their users to use their apps over others.

Apple and Google are the only major phone OS's. If they control what you can install on your phone, they have a monopoly.

> Wallmart choose their suppliers, and sets the markup, why can't Apple?

You're really comparing setting up a physical store to building world class operating system and phones? Almost anyone can set up shop and start selling things that Walmart isn't, or from suppliers who won't deal with Walmart, but it's not how tech worms. You're living in a different reality.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#776

Post by gnopgnip »

nuker wrote: post #588
gnopgnip wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. Epic wants users to be able to shop at stores other than Whole Foods, not to be carried at that store without a markup

> This is like in Amazon sold a fridge and said you can only shop at Whole Foods. So why would anyone buy such fridge? And if they do, there clearly are other benefits, which you omitted.

Sure, there are reasons people buy products with restrictions. But if there is harm to consumers, antitrust regulations can be used to prevent predatory business practices

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#777

Post by ric2b »

judge2020 wrote: post #211
013a wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think its really important the narrative stays clear concerning this: Its never been about users having choice (because users do have choice): Its about Developers not having a choice. Refusing to release an iOS app for your web application/game/etc is generally a death sentence, so much so that oftentimes you see new services release as "Get it on the iOS app store, Android coming soon."

Of course the argument for this is "why are iOS users more inclined to purchase games and IAPs compared to Android users?". I'm legitimately curious about this, but my first guess is these two factors: A. iOS is generally more expensive and thus users are more likely to have disposable income B. The IAP system means the only barrier to purchasing stuff on a completely new app is performing touch/face ID

Don't forget that Android has more than one store and depending on the company you buy your phone from it might even come with another store pre-installed, such as the Samsung store.

So comparing iOS store to only the play store will ignore a section of Android users.

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#778

Post by Razengan »

_qulr wrote: post #387

My feeling is that this whole situation is mostly going as Tim Sweeney intended. He was itching for a fight, wanted to sue Apple. The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands. Did Sweeney anticipate Apple's threat to Unreal Engine? Maybe, maybe not. But the temporary restraining order did block that threat, at least for now. I don't think Epic ever intended to…

> The harsher that Apple retaliates, the better Epic's court case. Apple is playing right into his hands.

Meanwhile, https://www.macrumors.com/2020/08/24/apple-stock-500/

Unity is also making a play on this, portraying the Unreal Engine as an unreliable choice because of Epic's erratic actions, and in their court filing Epic themselves complained about people leaving them in droves.

(Incidentally, when I try to Google "Epic says people leaving in droves" all the results are about millennials leaving cities.)

Re: Apple Terminates Epic Games' Developer Account

#780

Post by jonplackett »

veilrap wrote: post #601
Aeolun wrote: post #561

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I bought a $1000 device, but somehow Apple gets to decide what I run on it? I just cannot see how that is a desireable situation.

I bought a $1000 device because Apple gets to decide what can run on it. I like iOS, and I like that Apple provides a great user experience on the device. I was not in any way coerced into buying said device, and there are a plethora of other options for substitute devices had I wanted more control of what runs on the device, which I do not.

It wouldn’t do you any harm if epic was allowed to set up its own store. You just don’t use it if you don’t want to. Just like any other store. If you don’t like the look of it, don’t go inside. The AppStore will still be there for you just the same as always.
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