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Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

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Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#71

Post by meheleventyone »

basch wrote: post #62
hpoe wrote: post #43

So what happened in Kenosha was tragic, and I don't think the issue is as cut and dry as either side would have you believe. But my concern is I felt like this was inevitable, and will continue. I know the BLM protests are politically charged, but the problem is that there are many people's whose livelihoods and business are being permanently put out of commission and communities that are being devastated by the the…

This is the kind of more controversial comment Id like to see upvoted to spur good discussion. The Second Amendment says well regulated militia. Should a group of people be able to organize, with guns, to protect businesses from riots and looters? This one is looking like a very complicated situation as it unfolds. Someone underage, carrying an illegal gun, probably doesn't fall into well regulated. (Furthermore, wha…

I think the crux is well regulated and you nailed that well. If there are random people showing up with guns is that well regulated even if they have similar aims and might work together? One of the clear things from this incident is that the shooter was alone. Basically a cardinal sin from a military standpoint. Add to that AFAIK it’s not necessarily legal for random people to show up and stake a claim to defend property. Even if sanctioned implicitly by the police.

In general though I think it’s far more likely and borne out by history that if militias are allowed to form they do so in protection of the state far earlier than they do in opposition. The really interesting thing to me is that the anti-authority militias seem to have been entirely coopted into state support. Primarily though state supporting militias will arise earlier and stronger because it’s significantly easier to organise in support of extant power structures than it is to organise against them. Part of the current problem IMO is that the police no longer see themselves as neutral. White men dressed a certain way with guns are given a free pass as “one of us” in the heat of the moment.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#72

Post by r00fus »

crocodiletears wrote: post #60
tedivm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a simple solution here- stop the police from murdering black people. If a house burns down it can be rebuilt, but you can't rebuild the lives ended by white supremacy in our police departments.

You're right, but calling it a 'simple solution' is disingenuous. We have decades of structural racism, policing legislation, ill-considered training regimes, and cultural bias to correct for in a federated system whose stakeholders are notoriously contemptuous of top-down approaches, and who's legislative actors avoid being responsible for any decisions with consequences like the plague. You might as well say solvin…

You start by removing qualified immunity for people who murder. Not all police killings are murder but the ones we've seen show a systemic corruption that requires a systemic response.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#73

Post by meheleventyone »

basch wrote: post #65
tedivm wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The fact that he illegally transported a gun over state lines to "defend" a community he wasn't part of and which didn't want him there to begin with.

Depends on how you define the community. The police were thanking him for being out there, for his support, and giving out water bottles. (Top video in the article, skip about a minute in) 1:40 something in. Police: "Are you Protecting that building" Crowd: "yes" Police: "Thank you." https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/26/jacob-blake...

The US is infamous for police not policing the communities they live in. “A crowd” and “the police” say nothing about whether either belong to the local community.

Also if the police are celebrating illegal acts that should tell you something about the state of justice.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#74

Post by tedivm »

dazilcher wrote: post #67
tedivm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a simple solution here- stop the police from murdering black people. If a house burns down it can be rebuilt, but you can't rebuild the lives ended by white supremacy in our police departments.

Shouldn't you be arguing for fewer police killings, period? Last I checked more white people were being killed by police than black people.

Not as a percentage, which I'm sure you're aware of.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#75

Post by chiefalchemist »

xlm1717 wrote: post #57
z9e wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, typically when I see "slam" or "destroy" in the title like this I know it's not going to meet the expectations of that word. These words are so overused these days in headlines.

They only differ in magnitude from "criticize", but they're all the same thing. They seem overused because everyone is deconstructing everything these days.

In the context of expectations, journalism uses critique. It's plain, simple, and neutral, if not objective.

On the other hand, slam and destroy are judgemental. They're inflammatory hyperbole that shamelessly intended to bias the reader. That is, these are not words journalists use as BF does.

I'm not suggesting BF is wrong. We all know what their biz model is, as well as the tactics they use to achieve those end. What it is, it is. It's simply not jouralism.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#76

Post by r00fus »

dazilcher wrote: post #67
tedivm wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a simple solution here- stop the police from murdering black people. If a house burns down it can be rebuilt, but you can't rebuild the lives ended by white supremacy in our police departments.

Shouldn't you be arguing for fewer police killings, period? Last I checked more white people were being killed by police than black people.

You're misinterpreting the facts. Black people are more likely to be killed by police - they're not more in number because they're only 13% of the population [1]. The problem is the power of police unions and qualified immunity which is a legal construct made to be abused.

https://news.northeastern.edu/2020/07/16/the-research-is-cle...

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#77

Post by basch »

meheleventyone wrote: post #71
basch wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the kind of more controversial comment Id like to see upvoted to spur good discussion. The Second Amendment says well regulated militia. Should a group of people be able to organize, with guns, to protect businesses from riots and looters? This one is looking like a very complicated situation as it unfolds. Someone underage, carrying an illegal gun, probably doesn't fall into well regulated. (Furthermore, wha…

I think the crux is well regulated and you nailed that well. If there are random people showing up with guns is that well regulated even if they have similar aims and might work together? One of the clear things from this incident is that the shooter was alone. Basically a cardinal sin from a military standpoint. Add to that AFAIK it’s not necessarily legal for random people to show up and stake a claim to defend pro…

>the shooter was alone.

I havent watched much of it, but the one I did see starts with him being chased. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion I can draw from that.

>anti-authority militias seem to have been entirely coopted into state support

It is, almost an enemy of my enemy situation.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#78

Post by basch »

meheleventyone wrote: post #73
basch wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on how you define the community. The police were thanking him for being out there, for his support, and giving out water bottles. (Top video in the article, skip about a minute in) 1:40 something in. Police: "Are you Protecting that building" Crowd: "yes" Police: "Thank you." https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2020/08/26/jacob-blake...

The US is infamous for police not policing the communities they live in. “A crowd” and “the police” say nothing about whether either belong to the local community. Also if the police are celebrating illegal acts that should tell you something about the state of justice.

Id argue that defining community as where you live isnt the only way community can be used. Community could also be the place you work, the place you protect, the place you participate, the place you consume in, the place you interact with. Property, ownership, are only some of what make someone a community member.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#79

Post by meheleventyone »

basch wrote: post #77
meheleventyone wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the crux is well regulated and you nailed that well. If there are random people showing up with guns is that well regulated even if they have similar aims and might work together? One of the clear things from this incident is that the shooter was alone. Basically a cardinal sin from a military standpoint. Add to that AFAIK it’s not necessarily legal for random people to show up and stake a claim to defend pro…

>the shooter was alone. I havent watched much of it, but the one I did see starts with him being chased. I'm not sure what kind of conclusion I can draw from that. >anti-authority militias seem to have been entirely coopted into state support It is, almost an enemy of my enemy situation.

If he wasn’t alone where were his militia buddies whilst all this happened? Watching from a safe distance?

And I don’t think it’s an enemy of my enemy thing. I think these groups genuinely think Trump supports them.

Re: Facebook Employees Slam Zuckerberg over Militia Groups and QAnon After Kenosha

#80

Post by meheleventyone »

basch wrote: post #78
meheleventyone wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US is infamous for police not policing the communities they live in. “A crowd” and “the police” say nothing about whether either belong to the local community. Also if the police are celebrating illegal acts that should tell you something about the state of justice.

Id argue that defining community as where you live isnt the only way community can be used. Community could also be the place you work, the place you protect, the place you participate, the place you consume in, the place you interact with. Property, ownership, are only some of what make someone a community member.

Yes you can have your own local definition I suspect you will face an uphill battle for it to be accepted though. I suppose that means the protestors could be called the community too and since they outnumber both the militia types and the police they are the majority?

Ultimately it’s the transitory nature of the participation that marks it out as not part of the community. For example a landlord might not be considered part of the community despite owning property.

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