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Scrollbar Blindness

svenkadak.com

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Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#471

Post by dlevine »

I think part of the problem is that this "feature" masks the need to properly understand scroll behavior (at least if you only use platforms that auto-hide scrollbars).

Recently, we were doing a bug safari for a new product feature that was about to launch. I noticed that an element had a scrollbar when it shouldn't, and filed a bug. One of the developers picked it up, and first said "not a bug. I don't see it on my computer." I showed him the bug on my machine, and he looked at it for a few minutes before saying "I don't know how to fix it." I pointed out that the overflow-x was set to "scroll" in the CSS for that component, and he could just set it to "auto" to fix the behavior (since the scrollbar should never show up in normal usage of that feature). It turns out that he didn't even know "auto" existed.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#472

Post by 0xcde4c3db »

NegativeLatency wrote: post #222
baggy_trough wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse than undiscoverable features are land mine features, where some subtle gesture triggers a wild and unwanted mode change. Extra credit if the mode change is hard to get out of.

EX mode in vim

Let's look at a typical novice's session with the mighty ed:

golem$ ed

?

help

?

?

?

quit

?

exit

?

bye

?

hello?

?

eat flaming death

?

^C

?

^C

?

^D

?

---

Note the consistent user interface and error reportage. Ed is generous enough to flag errors, yet prudent enough not to overwhelm the novice with verbosity. [1]

[1] https://www.gnu.org/fun/jokes/ed-msg.html

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#473

Post by asciimov »

masswerk wrote: post #450
asciimov wrote: post #411

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish I knew how that floating window thing worked, cause like you I can manage to open it when I don't want it and can't get it to go away. I keep meaning to look for a good iPad tutorial, to see how to do all this stuff.

Remember the days of Scott Forestall, when iOS was famous for being intuitively and effectively used by three year olds? (Admittedly, there were less features, then…)

I miss those days. Though they went too far with the skeuomorphic design, it is a far cry better than what we have today.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#474

Post by fludlight »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #384
DonaldPShimoda wrote: post #238

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Pretty sure the Apple search bars used to be discoverable. When you first opened an app (like Messages), the search bar would be visible by default and you had to scroll down to hide it. Over time, they started hiding it by default and require you to scroll up to access it. I think that, at a general level, this principle of development is reasonable: things that used to require being extremely explicit can become mo…

> so you could think about your computer with the same lens as you thought about your desk, for instance I honestly never bought that, because I've never seen it in practice. Personal observation / anecdote time: (I'll hesitantly be generalizing from myself & people I knew as a kid/teenager to entirety of my generation of non-English-speaking countries, but I feel it's justified.) As a kid first discovering computers…

Emacs user for 20+ years here. I have written a nontrivial amount of elisp. I like emacs; and, yet, I still sometimes get confused by the difference between a window, a frame, and a buffer. Sometimes I encounter a phrase like “frame buffer” and just ignore it to avoid going down that rabbit hole again.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#475

Post by DreadY2K »

Voliokis wrote: post #206
scaryclam wrote: post #105

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Here's a link for something I use on such news and blog sites: https://alisdair.mcdiarmid.org/kill-sticky-headers/ I works a surprising amount of the time!

This is great, but to use it I need to sticky the bookmarks bar to the top of my screen when vertical space is already precious. Does anybody know something else that does the same thing without this issue?

Firefox has a bookmarks sidebar that pops up if you press Ctrl+B (or buried inside the hamburger menu, but Ctrl+B is the easiest way to access it). You can put the bookmark in there, and then only open the bookmarks menu when you want to access it.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#476

Post by saratogacx »

CarbyAu wrote: post #435
supernova87a wrote: post #18

I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…

Simple Windows Prank: - select non-maxmised open window - keyboard shortcut Alt+Space. Then M. to move. - use arrow keys to move windows offscreen, say to the right. Don't touch the mouse! - Hit Enter key to confirm position. From now on. Anything but "full maximise from the taskbar" makes the window "disappear" without a trace. "Restore" from the taskbar doesn't help. And assuming you even know exactly happened, you…

There are several ways to fix this without needing to be aware of the window's off screen position.

  - From the keyboard WIN+{Left|Right} resizes and pins the window to the side of the screen
  - From the keyboard WIN+Up to maximize the window (or right click on the task bar and select maximize.  Now, drag the title bar from the top and the window will unpin from the screen and move with the mouse
  - Right click on the task bar and choose any of the windows arrangement options (Stack, tile, cascade)

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#477

Post by dmitriid »

IncRnd wrote: post #344
dmitriid wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a non-answer to my question.

No. It was an answer. The correct answer is that there are many ways to test for this. Just look for one.

If you knew the answer, you would've already answered this. Instead, you keep giving non-answers until you admit that you don't test yourself, and that other people use some libraries, you don't know which.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#478

Post by rtx »

Aeolun wrote: post #449
dmkolobov wrote: post #445

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m 28, and I don’t know how to use most apps and websites anymore, and I’m a web developer. My intro to computers was when I was 6 years old, and I was trying to install games on Windows 95 in a language I didn’t understand(English). The consistency of the layouts was the only thing that made that work. So many of my childhood experiences with computers relied on consistent spatial representations. Kids seem to do j…

A while ago I had a discussion about our UI with our designer, and when I mentioned that nothing seems to work as you’d expect, he said he wants people to learn a unique way of dealing with our interface. It boggles my mind how that is something you could actively want.

Maybe for lock-in!

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#479

Post by stan_rogers »

wnevets wrote: post #354
reaperducer wrote: post #163

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features You don't even have to be elderly. The 20-somethings in the office (pre-pandemic) had no idea that on an inconsistent smattering of Apple apps, if you pull down, a hidden search bar magically appears. How did that conversation go? Dev: Where do you want the search bar to go? Designer: Put it somewhere that no one will ever see it, or…

>I think people in the SV/HN bubble play the "what about the elderly?" card too often, because we're afraid to admit that we, too, don't know how stuff works anymore. Perhaps but even when I don't know how an app works I can usually figure it out, either by trying different things or just googling. Older generations tend to be afraid of "breaking" the device and avoid doing anything they dont already know.

No, they're not "afraid of 'breaking' the device", they simply don't have time for that shit. And there is absolutely no excuse for that shit. If you're writing the latest descendant of Myst, sure, go for it. If it's not an adventure game, there should be no essence of adventure game in the ingredients list. At all. Ever.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#480

Post by mulmen »

mark-r wrote: post #427
jchw wrote: post #404

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reason why they pull the "what about the elderly?" card is simple. Most of us can figure it out, even if it's stupid. My parents however have a much, much harder time trying to figure out how to do something that is counter-intuitive. It's more about problem solving and experience with existing user interfaces than anything else. Designers nowadays definitely design things in a manner that suggests they assume so…

I'm embarrassed to admit how long it took me to realize what the hamburger button did. Designers just started assuming everybody knew.

We have an internal app at work that only has a hamburger button. It makes me sad every time I click on it.
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