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Scrollbar Blindness

svenkadak.com

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Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#201

Post by dmitriid »

IncRnd wrote: post #196
reaperducer wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Online isn't real-life. You can test in a VM, but it will never be the same as testing on actual hardware. Even my craptastic company gives me a bunch of devices to test on. And I very deliberately specify very low-end versions of the machines so that I can test against worst-case-scenarios. It's a bonus that sub-optimal hardware is cheap as chips. My favorite testing device is a $20 burner phone I picked up in the s…

> Online isn't real-life. You can test in a VM, but it will never be the same as testing on actual hardware. Ths context is that testing is a solved problem. You are taking specific factual examples I wrote and attempting to debunk them with a general statement that is in agreement with what I wrote. Testing scrollbards can absolutely be tested inside a VM. Pretending that native hardware is needed to cover 99% of th…

> Ths context is that testing is a solved problem.

The only problem that is solved is running multiple browsers in VMs in a cloud. Everything else is anyone's guess.

To come up with an automated test for the problem in the OP you have to be a) aware of the problem and b) have a way to test that scrollbars do/don't appear. Good luck with that.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#202

Post by snazz »

aendruk wrote: post #162
marmshallow wrote: post #122

While folks are rightfully bashing macOS’s hidden scroll bars, I would like to advertise an iOS feature that is actually pro-scroll bar. As of iOS 13, you can grab the scroll bar to scroll at hyper speed rather than repeatedly flicking the screen. Not sure if there’s a proper name for this feature but it’s explained here https://www.idownloadblog.com/2019/08/05/scroll-faster-iphon...

> you can grab the scroll bar to scroll at hyper speed I think it's called using a scrollbar. :) That's typically how they work. To spare readers the content marketing piece: tap and hold to grab it.

That wasn't how they worked on nearly any modern multi-touch capacitive touchscreen device.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#203

Post by richiebful1 »

x87678r wrote: post #124
vbsteven wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the macOS monoculture is going to go away in the next few years because on one side macOS is becoming more and more developer hostile with each release and on the other side WSL (and WSL2) is improving the Windows developer experience a lot. I use Windows as my daily driver OS now for both native/web/mobile/devops work and I expect to see more and more developers making that same switch in the coming years.

Linux on laptops is getting much better too. Is a great alternative now for developers.

Especially now that hardware makers are making developer edition devices with Linux-supported hardware (and Ubuntu/RHEL pre-installed)

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#205

Post by Tempest1981 »

derefr wrote: post #165
supernova87a wrote: post #18

I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…

Scroll bars weren't really "hidden", though; they were obviated. At least on macOS, all the mouse-like input peripherals that Apple will sell you (both the Magic Mouse and Magic Trackpad), and all the inputs for their laptops, have two-finger "natural" scrolling. Apple seems to expect/assume that you've scrolled a touchscreen at some point in your life (in fact, many people have scrolled more touchscreens than deskto…

Speaking of title bars, the trend to move content into the title bar is terrible for usability. There is nowhere left to click to move a window. Not to mention each app choosing a different color/style for this region. Do designers assume everyone runs 1 full screen window at a time?

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#206

Post by Voliokis »

scaryclam wrote: post #105
supernova87a wrote: post #18

I have to pile onto the criticism of the hidden scroll bars, and other similar features (like the hidden buttons of PDF viewers now, such as in Chrome). Discoverability is a problem. For anyone (cough, elderly parents) who aren't adept at discovering hidden features, these things can be utterly mind-boggling and frustrating. Even I was stumped for a good minute the first time trying to print/save/download a PDF when…

Here's a link for something I use on such news and blog sites: https://alisdair.mcdiarmid.org/kill-sticky-headers/ I works a surprising amount of the time!

This is great, but to use it I need to sticky the bookmarks bar to the top of my screen when vertical space is already precious. Does anybody know something else that does the same thing without this issue?

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#207

Post by im3w1l »

liability wrote: post #91
bradstewart wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Developers (seemingly a lot of them?) use a touchpad as their primary input device on a regular basis? I guess this is an example of being in my own bubble, but I can't stand touchpads. I've used the touchpad on MacBook, like, twice in 2 years.

I would expect devs who use macbooks to generally use them the same way as the general population generally uses them. I can't think of a plausible reason to suspect that developers specifically might prefer traditional mice. One demographic I would expect traditional mouse usage from would be gamers. When I play a first person game I always use my trusty old intellimouse. Otherwise, I use the trackpad unless I'm sim…

A thing I've seen is a macbook that spends most of the time hooked up to mouse. keyboard and two external monitors, but occasionally gets unplugged and brought to meetings or around the office in general.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#208

Post by Doctor_Fegg »

dgellow wrote: post #12

Another one of such thing: please try to scroll on your site using a mouse wheel from time to time, even if you're normally using a touchpad (from your laptop or an external one)! Lot of fancy homepage with scroll animations are awful on anything that isn't scrolling as smoothly as a MacBookPro touchpad. Example: https://www.apple.com/ipad-pro/ is horrible to use on anything that isn't a mobile device or a Mac.

Please try to scroll on your site using an entirely wheel-less mouse, too.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#209

Post by Vinnl »

hellofunk wrote: post #181
xur17 wrote: post #108

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For folks considering the switch, I highly recommend considering linux as well. I've used both macOS and ubuntu as a development environment, and bug wise they are on par, but linux really excels at having a true "native" development environment. Docker without a weird VM, true bash, etc.

To suggest that “bug wise“ it is the same between Mac and Linux is a bit of a stretch. I work in a team where the developers are mostly split between Mac and Ubuntu. Guess which ones often have problems joining zoom meetings or attaching their machines to a projector for a presentation? There are a lot of things that you generally don’t have to worry about much if you’re using a Mac. I’m not gonna say that one of the…

I think the corollary is "consider Ubuntu, but still don't skimp on hardware". Buy a proper laptop that ships with Ubuntu, buy a proper connector cable if you need one, etc.

Re: Scrollbar Blindness

#210

Post by makecheck »

narag wrote: post #195
baggy_trough wrote: post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Even worse than undiscoverable features are land mine features, where some subtle gesture triggers a wild and unwanted mode change. Extra credit if the mode change is hard to get out of.

Windows keys started the nightmare for me decades ago. So nice hitting one of those while gaming full-screen! This conversation happened a thousand times: "but you can hit them again and restore what you were doing"... no, I can't, specially if I have pressed a dozen keys since. I used to buy IBM keyboards from more civilized times, but my dealer disappeared, maybe he was arrested?

My favorite is when I use control-L to clear the screen on a terminal and hit Windows-L by accident to lock the entire laptop.
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