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Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

psyche.co

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Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#251

Post by cutemonster »

cousin_it wrote: post #116

Guilt-tripping isn't morally neutral. It's manipulation, exploitation, getting people to do what you want without giving them what they want. Doing it is evil and makes you evil. In my late teens and early twenties I constantly guilt-tripped people close to me. It was my "thing". It hurt everyone a lot. Then one day I realized how sick it was, and stopped completely. Now I never do it to anyone for any reason, and pu…

> Guilt-tripping ... is evil and makes you evil.

Actually it seems you didn't 100% stop guilt tripping others

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#252

Post by renewiltord »

learnstats2 wrote: post #250
learnstats2 wrote: post #248

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So was your point not that you could "fuck over" Arab men by oppressing Arab women?

So it was a racist and sexist point, aiming to use the misery of other people to enrich yourself (or, just for fun).

Surely telling someone not to oppress women and not to oppress an ethnicity can't be racist or sexist.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#253

Post by manicdee »

hliyan wrote: post #168
renewiltord wrote: post #63

Wait, this is great. It means the guilt trip is very good at entrenching a viewpoint. So if you want to fuck someone over, find something he's doing that's hurting him and guilt trip him till he doubles down. You can do this at the whole society level: for instance, no society that underemploys some large fraction of its populace will effectively compete against an equivalent one with efficient workplace participatio…

I'm disturbed by your casual suggestion that we weaponize reverse psychology at a global scale.

It's a reductio ad absurdum argument.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#254

Post by cutemonster »

didibus wrote: post #240
jagrsw wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I've been trying really hard to replace all my usage of "you're wrong" with "yes and". How does it work with e.g.? A: 2+2=5 B: Yes and.... I've seen this advice in some local guideline for holding effective meetings, but there are certain scenarios where saying 'yes and' or 'this might be true from your POV, but please consider' feels more like trying to manipulate someone than just trying to figure out something (…

A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your…

> You don't pretend to know better

What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing?

I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that?

Especially if the other person sounds self confident.

Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way?

But I think too that in most cases, especially when talking one and one, the Yes-and or sth like that probably is a good approach

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#255

Post by didibus »

cutemonster wrote: post #254
didibus wrote: post #240

Earlier quoted context omitted.

A: 2+2=5 B: Yes, and I believe it's 4. This is a mutually respectful dialogue. You don't pretend to know better. You're just each sharing your ideas, and if they conflict, you'll open a dialogue into why they think it is 5? And here's why I think it is 4. And then you can both try to resolve the conflict and see why you think differently and what the correct answer actually is now that you've considered both. In your…

> You don't pretend to know better What if one really knows better though, eg talking about life at a place where you've been, but the other person never was there and is just guessing? I'm thinking a problem then can be the bystanders / co-workers: now they're going to think 5 is a fairly ok answer, when you didn't very clearly disagree about that? Especially if the other person sounds self confident. Any thoughts a…

> Any thoughts about how to strongly disagree, in a polite way, when the other person is crazily wrong in a slightly harmful way?

If the other person is actually trying to misinform, it'll be hard. If they're really genuine, I think doing the above gives the bystanders enough info to choose for themselves. Like, you still should disclose the information you have, so say you have been there, and that it wasn't at all like that from your first hand experience, etc.

The thing is, you won't convince everyone, but you'll have a better chance at convincing others if they hear you out and consider what you're saying openly. So that's kind of the idea here.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#256

Post by h0l0cube »

h0l0cube wrote: post #85
logicchains wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Greetings from Melbourne, Victoria, currently on stage 4 lockdown because enough people are selfish and don't care (unless threatened). It's because your governor adopted a stupid policy that doesn't account for human nature. How well has banning drugs and teen drinking worked to limit those? It failed completely. How could anybody in their right mind believe the same heavy-handed approach is optimal for dealing wit…

> It's because your governor adopted a stupid policy The 'Premier' of Victoria, was one of the first to move, and the policies in place were holding up. Mismanagement of the mandatory hotel quarantine system caused an outbreak just days after restrictions were being lifted across the country. Using under-trained security guards was a mis-step, but for the outbreak to happen at this crucial moment was more a failure i…

I'm going to take it that the downvote was from the poster I was replying to. Without animosity, would you care to share what your disagreement is?

I'm always willing to correct my beliefs, admit to any errors. A down-vote on its own does not provide me with any new information though.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#257

Post by mlang23 »

guerrilla wrote: post #161
mlang23 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I am white, granted. However, I have no extraordinary power nor am I really wealthy. Pushing these buttons, implying that I should be guilty for what I am, is only increasing the divide between the races. Accusing me of playing an acitve part in supressing others is simply a false allegation. This is racist. And you dont even realize! Both sides will have to work on how they communicate with each other to improve thi…

> implying that I should be guilty for what I am No, on two levels. First, nobody cares about how you feel, guilty or otherwise. Second, it's not about what you are either. It's about what you have, i.e. wealth and relative power, and what you do. Those are things within your control, unlike anyone's race. > Accusing me of playing an acitve part in supressing others is simply a false allegation. You do play that acti…

All the "wealth" I have results from my own income. And my "power" simply doesn't exist.

Although I think these sort of comparisons are pretty useless, I am sure there are a lot of black people with more power then a blind white man.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#258

Post by SeerKlein »

ianai wrote: post #188
pbhjpbhj wrote: post #132

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So feel guilty that you don't feel thankful, but only if you're white? You know that skin colour doesn't make you immune to poverty, or disease, or any adversity? Your comment comes across as supporting the parent comment; and as exceptionally racist. Almost certainly some kids living in USA didn't eat today. Your comment sounds like "well starving white kids can just eat their privilege". I don't understand why you'…

There are more emotions than guilt and thankfulness. They also aren’t even the apparent dipoles you appear to imply. Being thankful doesn’t mean you’re not guilty. I’m sure there are plenty of scenes of Lex Luther being thankful on YouTube of something he should feel guilt over-might even.

There certainly are more emotions. To add on to what you're saying, being thankful doesn't mean you're not guilty. However, it also doesn't imply guilt either.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#259

Post by SeerKlein »

pbhjpbhj wrote: post #132
depressedpanda wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you are a white man born in America, feeling guilt is what you’re supposed to feel, as a human being. Nonsense. You should feel thankful. Thankful that you had the luck being born in the most prosperous time in human history, where you have access to better healthcare, transportation, human rights and democratic privileges, to name just a few. Once you realize how good it is to live in this day and age and feel…

So feel guilty that you don't feel thankful, but only if you're white? You know that skin colour doesn't make you immune to poverty, or disease, or any adversity? Your comment comes across as supporting the parent comment; and as exceptionally racist. Almost certainly some kids living in USA didn't eat today. Your comment sounds like "well starving white kids can just eat their privilege". I don't understand why you'…

I think that what you're saying about how skin color doesn't make you immune to adversity is true. I also think that they are trying to say that you shouldn't focus on guilt and instead should focus on gratitude, that relatively speaking and from their perspective, white people are privileged.

I can see how in some ways, some subset of white people have had much better fortunes than others and people of color. There are, like you said, other subsets of white people who've had it worse or suffer similarly.

Re: Want people to do the right thing? Save them the guilt trip

#260

Post by SeerKlein »

taurath wrote: post #228
Cthulhu_ wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Should you self-flagellate for being born in the situation you are in? How would that benefit anyone? Guilt is a negative emotion, and in my opinion you shouldn't have to do penance for things you have no control over. Instead, you can use your position of privilege to do good in whatever way fits. My small contribution, I run an online community (~1000 members in our Discord server) with a zero tolerance policy on r…

Again, you shouldn't feel guilt for yourself, but you should feel guilt for your ancestors. Not self-flagellation. And you should attempt some penance if you are able - sometimes that just involves welcoming people into spaces with you. What is not tolerable to me is to pretend you are not, at least in part, a result of a long string of advantages. That your relative power comes with responsibility. And to not put yo…

I don't think that's what the article was getting at. Feeling guilty is the exact thing that you're supposed to avoid, if you want to help others. Instead, focus on the gratitude and how fortunate you are. From there, because you feel so grateful and compassionate, you want to help others alleviate their suffering.
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