Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

jacquesmattheij.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

221–230 of 588 posts

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#221

Post by Cthulhu_ »

There are ways and means, but it's down to app developers; they should not push major updates over the auto update channel, instead just push a "v2" with an upgrade path from the previous version(s). In theory.

But that's one app model. Does Apple still allow for models like that?

The model currently used by a number of apps - webapps, Electron apps, browsers, operating systems - is that of the "evergreen" model, where they continuously update. But this is where Firefox is dropping a bollock; they do BIG updates, rebrand it with things like Quantum, and push MAJOR UI updates.

Contrast this with Chrome which, from a user (i.e. my) perspective has only done incremental updates. UI changes have been small and subtle. This page [1] has a number of screenshots from the old version of Chrome. I have a dark theme going on now but it's not changed that much at all. Chrome has never been a brand, hardly a product, as opposed to Firefox which is still stuck in the 90's / 2000's where they only get interest if they do a new version.

That was the old model for Windows, Office, Adobe products, etc for a long time as well - they HAD to make a new "big" version to keep sales going. But customers did not HAVE to update, so they would often stick with older versions - things that worked - and e.g. Adobe HAD to come up with new features to convince people to upgrade.

But it's all gone to subscription services now, which come with "evergreen" updates.

One more anecdote I'd like to do: I've been using 1password for years now, because for me it worked best as a crossplatform password manager (Windows, Mac & iOS, synchronization via Dropbox). They switched to a subscription model a while ago, but the versions I have were all paid for in single purchases. On Windows I'm still on 1password 4 while on Mac it's 1password 7, and thankfully the two are still fully compatible when it comes to their data. I'm sure this won't last, but as long as I don't HAVE to update (and as long as their encryption is solid), it'll be fine to just keep the version I have now - That is one company / product that cannot afford to be flippant about their customer data, data format. I've got hundreds of accounts in there, if I were to lose it it would be... pretty bad. At the very least I should write down my gmail password and double check my recovery codes because everything is linked to that one account. Anyway I ramble / digress. Stuff.

[1] https://www.techrepublic.com/pictures/photos-10-years-of-goo...

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#222

Post by Legogris »

omnifischer wrote: post #213
Legogris wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My gripe here is with system updates, not apps from the Play Store.

I for one stopped updating after nougat. At least you can flash safe lineageos . Search for TWRP/backup. Even you can clone phone to identical model.

Things may very well have changed, but last I seriously checked there was no stable lineageos for galaxy s9. Just stopping updates and staying on the official but outdated Android version will open users to potential serious security risks.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#223

Post by viraptor »

blub wrote: post #203
dt3ft wrote: post #184

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It took a while to find a comment that points out the cost of maintaining legacy UI. It is highly likely that no customer is willing to pay for support of legacy anything, let alone UI. "Jonny" sounds like the kind of person that wants to purchase software at a one-time cost, and then expect free lifetime upgrades (which include all the outrageous demands such as supporting legacy UI). Make your own software Jonny, s…

The legacy UI often works fine and the new UI's sole purpose is to justify the salaries of the design department. Ask any customer if they're willing to pay for a new UI and you'll likely find that they don't.

It depends on a question though. "Do you want a UI redesign?" will likely be a no. "Do you want to access the thing you're using 100 times a day in 1 click rather than 5 menus?" will always be a yes.

Unless the company is completely failing at its strategy (and that's not the same thing as many vocal people saying that on the internet forum), the redesign has goals and some reason behind it. Your "worse" may be solution to someone's ongoing problems.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#224

Post by ChrisMarshallNY »

My wife is a photographer; an excellent one.

She has thousands of digital images that have been manipulated by a certain unique, proprietary software package. There are no modern equivalent applications, and the original one stopped being updated almost a decade ago.

Miraculously, it still works, but she is terrified at every upgrade prompt.

There aren’t really any acceptable substitutions for the original app. She could run it on her images, to “bake” them into TIFFs, but that would be a “once you are a pickle; you’ll never be a cucumber again” thing. The format is a reversible one that relies on a specific application to render it in a scripted, linear fashion.

So this is yet another issue of modern software. Format and rendering obsolescence. It can’t really be fixed. The original app was discontinued, because it was too expensive to maintain, and the customer base was too small to reward maintenance. The driving technology was patented and proprietary.

This is not unique to photography. I think pretty much every art or industry has this problem.

As long as she maintains her operating system at a certain level, the application will continue to work, but the day is coming (probably quite soon), where it can’t work. She has already refused to upgrade to the current version of the OS, and it is only a matter of time before she can’t get a computer that will run the older version; not to mention the security issues inherent in running out-of-date systems.

It’s a huge problem. Open-source is helpful in some cases, but not all (it wouldn’t help here, because no one would bother to pick up the app; even if the proprietary parts were published, unless a skilled software engineer was also a photographer and expert at that software, and would be willing to do the heavy lifting required to publish and distribute the software).

It’s also not a new issue. I am glad to see a lot of open-source and standard formats, but they don’t solve every problem.

Open standards tend to suffer from the “all things to all men” problem, where the needs of the few are subsumed by the needs of the many. They are also often quite painful to implement. Anyone that has written a general-purpose TIFF reader will know exactly what I mean.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#225

Post by cgrealy »

dt3ft wrote: post #188
cgrealy wrote: post #55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Completely agree about interfaces. File formats should be supported though. At the very least, I should be able to import a file from the old version and have it converted.

If you pay for your software through a subscription, of course, no problem. You paid for software once? Well, tough luck. Your older versions will no longer be supported because we can't afford developers because you stopped giving us money. There is no way anyone is going to be supporting old formats while providing free updates. This makes no business sense.

That very much depends on the license.

Many licenses include future updates.

I am far more likely to pay for software that supports file formats in the future.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#226

Post by rocqua »

Notably, the list of SHOULDs at the end only applies to _automatic updates_. For voluntary updates, many of these things are acceptable. Moreover, a user should accept that at some point a certain version of software will lose support and, unless you take the voluntary update, will stop getting security updates and bug-fixes.

This contract cuts both ways. That is important to realize.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#227

Post by monadic2 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #224

My wife is a photographer; an excellent one. She has thousands of digital images that have been manipulated by a certain unique, proprietary software package. There are no modern equivalent applications, and the original one stopped being updated almost a decade ago. Miraculously, it still works, but she is terrified at every upgrade prompt. There aren’t really any acceptable substitutions for the original app. She c…

VMs might work. It's hard (impossible?) for most versions of osx.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#228

Post by cringepirate »

BearfootCoder wrote: post #198
cringepirate wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

That only works if the user of the software has freedom of choice over the software they use. For the majority of commercial software sales that is not the case. Commercial software is overwhelmingly brought by companies who dictate to their staff what software they must work with. And the companies which shell out the big bucks to keep terrible software products shambling along for year after year don't really do it…

The article is talking about forced updates by vendors of consumer grade software. That is what we are talking about.

Also the same rule still applies. If I had to use some terrible software everyday I would leave a job if it was that bad. I had to develop on a terrible CMS, once I realised it was never going to change, I looked for another job.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#229

Post by kd5bjo »

shawnz wrote: post #207
mmphosis wrote: post #177

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have Windows 10 Pro. It is horrible. And, I have no choice in any of it. Advertisements pop up at random times. I am constantly turning things off, and they get turned back on again. I am diligent about checking for updates at the end of my work day, and then turning off scheduled updates. I cannot afford to wait for a "Do not turn off your computer" screen.

I assure you, being diligent about checking for updates is more than enough to solve that issue and there is no need to disable updates in addition. If you install them regularly, then you will not be interrupted. You will only be interrupted if you don't do that for weeks. If you don't believe me, then just try it. Don't base your decisions on FUD from tech bloggers about how terrible the update process is.

About a year ago, I had some problems with WSL and decided to do a proper dual-boot setup. The net result was that Windows insisted on doing a long update cycle every time I attempted to use it. This resulted in an effective boot time of 15-30 minutes, which turned out to never be worth it.

Why do these devices with almost no moving parts need weekly (or monthly) maintenance? We don’t accept that level of neediness from any other household tool.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#230

Post by ebawho44 »

ChrisMarshallNY wrote: post #224

My wife is a photographer; an excellent one. She has thousands of digital images that have been manipulated by a certain unique, proprietary software package. There are no modern equivalent applications, and the original one stopped being updated almost a decade ago. Miraculously, it still works, but she is terrified at every upgrade prompt. There aren’t really any acceptable substitutions for the original app. She c…

What decade old photo editing application does not have a modern equivalent that is better? I can't image having to go back to decades old software to edit my photos.
Post reply on HN