Why Johnny Won't Upgrade • Hacker News Board

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#121

Post by zxcmx » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:48 AM UTC

grugagag wrote: post #100

zxcmx wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's possible for developers to think they are shipping must-have features _and_ for users to see that as "messing up all my menus" and "disrupting my workflow". Inevitably some users will complain about changes in every new update while others complain about a lack of eagerly awaited new features and bug fixes. You cannot make everyone happy :/ I'm sympathetic to the idea that workflow/ui changes should be explicit…

Don't force updates on people. For the ones who want to update asap they should be able to do so. I prefer to make sure a major update is not going to fuck my system then I will update as well, it's happened to me before multiple times and I am forever hesitant about this. It's also happened to me to get featured removed when updating so if something is working allright I will hesitate updating for a while.

Context matters. So 3d sculpting software or CAD do not deeply need automatic updates, although it can greatly reduce support requests (e.g. something in the OS changed, software is now crashing, need to install update).

The state of play in 2020 however is that operating systems and browsers 100% need automatic updates for security issues. The reason we have them is because of all the bad things that happened when we didn't.

There should then be a very small switch hidden somewhere deep in the system where people like you who know what they are doing can turn them off. For the people who are using the software to say, run the electrical grid and a) care more about stability than security and b) pay people to write scathing reports about all the patches they're not installing.

IMHO there is a sticky middle ground with respect to office suites and email clients where the software is widespread enough that bugs are wormable.

Updates as a whole are inter-twingled with the developer's support and release model, how they a/b test and general maturity in terms of managing change. I feel like we're often complaining about different aspects of this when we talk about "updates".

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#122

Post by Sabinus » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:50 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #118

tomc1985 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues to be regarded as a "cost center" That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users That will never happen as long as evangelists keep pushing this doctrine that more updates, more features, mor…

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

Governments are supposed to intervene in markets to keep them stable, functional and ethical. Hand-balling all market regulation to ethical individual consumption isn't workable for many industries where companies can monopolize, capture regulation and sway public opinion with advertising campaigns.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#123

Post by ocdtrekkie » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:50 AM UTC

AnonHP wrote: post #98

This is an area where iOS sucks. Having faced some undesirable consequences in the past from greedy and/or downright malicious developers, I don’t have automatic updates turned on for apps. But what makes things worse is that iOS doesn’t provide a way for a user to downgrade an app to a previous version. Since syncing app binaries to computers was also long removed (from iOS 9), the only special version of iTunes (12…

Downgrading as a well-managed process is not a popular concept on any platform. Even fairly open ones will generally require you to fully remove the version you have, find an older download file, and install it. And unless you have backups, good luck downgrading your data files back to the older schema.

I imagine a well-managed downgrading system would discourage malicious use of auto updates, developers would need to woo users into continuing to move forward.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#124

Post by taneq » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:53 AM UTC

smabie wrote: post #71

chrisseaton wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t use keyboard shortcuts TBH.

How do you program without any keybindings?

Very slowly, I assume. From their profile, they do research so maybe they do spend all their time thinking about code rather than writing it, which is great for them, but doesn’t reflect what the vast majority of devs do.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#125

Post by pmiller2 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:57 AM UTC

zingermc wrote: post #92

pmiller2 wrote: post #48

Yeah, I'm regretting upgrading Google Maps on iOS recently. For some reason now, whenever I bump the phone, the map view changes. I need my map view to show me going left when I turn left and right when I go right in order to make sense of things, but it will usually end up in a static "north = top of screen" orientation, no matter what I do. It's turned a good piece of software into something almost unusable. Edit:…

I think you can click the compass to switch between these modes.

I know that. The problem was it would switch when the phone switched orientations.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#126

Post by bdowling » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 3:59 AM UTC

tomc1985 wrote: post #102

spaetzleesser wrote: post #86

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to" I don't think that's actual true. As far as I know the only legal obligation a company has is to conduct lawful business.

Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Neither customers nor employees can do that

> Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested.

In general, shareholder recourse is limited to electing a new board that will do what those shareholders want. The exceptions are cases where the actions of the corporation or board are discriminatory to some shareholders, or where there is fraud or self-dealing by insiders (e.g., shareholder derivative suits).

> They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit

Not directly. Shareholders elect the board, which then chooses the managers (CEO, etc.) who actually run the company. Shareholders usually only elect board members once per year at the annual meeting. So it’s not arbitrary.

> Neither customers nor employees can do that

This is true. Customers and employees don’t direct the corporation the same ways that the owners (shareholders) do. However, customers can boycott and employees can strike. Those can be effective ways to influence the direction of a corporation. Also, customers can sue for other things (e.g., fraud or malpractice), as can employees (e.g., employment discrimination). And any injured third party can sue the corporation.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#127

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:05 AM UTC

bdowling wrote: post #126

tomc1985 wrote: post #102

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. They can also arbitrarily shuffle senior management as they see fit Neither customers nor employees can do that

> Shareholders can sue if they do not think their interests are being properly represented/manifested. In general, shareholder recourse is limited to electing a new board that will do what those shareholders want. The exceptions are cases where the actions of the corporation or board are discriminatory to some shareholders, or where there is fraud or self-dealing by insiders (e.g., shareholder derivative suits). > Th…

You are correct, I am getting my wires crossed a bit.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#128

Post by tomc1985 » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:06 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #118

tomc1985 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues to be regarded as a "cost center" That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users That will never happen as long as evangelists keep pushing this doctrine that more updates, more features, mor…

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

> If people can't be bothered and choose to be ignorant, they deserve what they get.

The problem is that those that do care also have to suffer. After a certain point of critical mass, when it comes to tech, oftentimes you can't just take your business elsewhere any more.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#129

Post by cringepirate » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:09 AM UTC

Sabinus wrote: post #122

cringepirate wrote: post #118

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

Governments are supposed to intervene in markets to keep them stable, functional and ethical. Hand-balling all market regulation to ethical individual consumption isn't workable for many industries where companies can monopolize, capture regulation and sway public opinion with advertising campaigns.

Unfortunately I should have expected a reply such as this. Everything is seen as a all or nothing proposition.

I think it is pretty obvious that if companies are abusing their position to that extent an appropriate governing body should step in. However there are going to be issues that won't fall under such a remit.

Also just because the government/regulator is failing to step in, doesn't mean you can't be doing something yourself. I was getting very frustrated with Google and its products. So I decided to stop using them whenever possible.

As for moving away from industry giants, this works. Firefox (back in the early 2000s) chipped away at IE's monopoly and broke the stagnation.

Re: Why Johnny Won't Upgrade

#130

Post by spirobel » Thu, Aug 27, 2020, 4:13 AM UTC

cringepirate wrote: post #118

tomc1985 wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to That will never happen as long as software continues to be regarded as a "cost center" That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users That will never happen as long as evangelists keep pushing this doctrine that more updates, more features, mor…

No you got it the wrong way around. The power is in the hands of the user. > That will never happen as long as shareholders are the only people that companies are legally beholden to The user has a choice not to use products that are made by companies that don't respect them. > That will never happen as long as developers insist that their happiness is more immportant than that of their users The user can simply stop…

what about adobe though? what if you work in a field where you are forced to use a certain proprietary file format or software? this sounds a bit naiive. go talk to real johnnys :-)