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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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621–630 of 639 posts

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#621
post #616

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. The we each can make the right choice about whether or not we as individuals should do business with them. We should allow them that freedom. I'm convinced!

> You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. They're free to try. There's more of us than them though and we're also free to continue enforcing our existing anti-trust laws and make new ones for important digital platforms. I advocate for freedom for the common man. What are you doing here?

It seems like you've moved from a position of "way more harm is done by protecting people than allowing freedoms" to "more harm is done by allowing Apple to do as they wish; we need protection from that", despite Apple being a subset of "people".

And the "more of us than them" suggests that rather than any principled approach, you advocate something like the mob rule that the Athenians described to the Melians: the strong do what they will and the weak suffer what they must. Fair enough. That position has been common enough throughout history. Right now lots of people appear to like the way Apple is running their company. Does that make it right? You seem to think no, but are articulating reasons why you should think yes. That's perplexing to me.

I'm trying to make sense of what I think about the disagreement between Apple and Epic. I'm not sure. The arguments people are making against Apple so far seem unsuccessful and problematic to me. I think the collective bargaining argument I've cautiously advanced might make some sense.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#622
post #621

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. They're free to try. There's more of us than them though and we're also free to continue enforcing our existing anti-trust laws and make new ones for important digital platforms. I advocate for freedom for the common man. What are you doing here?

It seems like you've moved from a position of "way more harm is done by protecting people than allowing freedoms" to "more harm is done by allowing Apple to do as they wish; we need protection from that", despite Apple being a subset of "people". And the "more of us than them" suggests that rather than any principled approach, you advocate something like the mob rule that the Athenians described to the Melians: the s…

Sorry, I didn’t really read any of that.

If you couldn’t tell that I completely disagree with your backwards notion of what’s right and good by now and that nothing you’ll say will convince me that less freedom for common folks is somehow better...even after I’ve told you this directly...yet you keep responding to me, I guess you just need to have the last word?

Have at it!

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#623

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This false argument" Why don't you address it then? There is a world of more open software and hardware out there if you want that freedom. Why should everyone be subject to exactly the product you want?

It was addressed a lot of times before, but OK, I'll do it again. You see, you too want the product I am describing, but you are too myopic to understand it. Maybe it is because you come from a better place than I, where the government does not actively censor app stores. Imagine, that some day Apple will remove the app you use, would you still say 'ok, I knew what product I bought'? With iOS devices, you don't buy a…

You failed to address the argument.

In a market where both options exist why should one change to be like the one you prefer?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#624

I'm always frustrated by journalists who never mention the case number (why not?), let alone link to a copy of the actual ruling. Here's a PDF of the ruling, I think it's worth reading: https://cdn.vox-cdn.com/uploads/chorus_asset/file/21814075/c...

> why not? Easy: a link off their site doesn't earn them any money. They want to you stay on their domain.

They just need to learn the magic of: target="_blank"

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#625

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It was addressed a lot of times before, but OK, I'll do it again. You see, you too want the product I am describing, but you are too myopic to understand it. Maybe it is because you come from a better place than I, where the government does not actively censor app stores. Imagine, that some day Apple will remove the app you use, would you still say 'ok, I knew what product I bought'? With iOS devices, you don't buy a…

You failed to address the argument. In a market where both options exist why should one change to be like the one you prefer?

You failed to understand that there are no options for iPhone apps market, and users are open to all kinds of abuse: by Apple themselves and by authoritarian governments like in China or Russia. Now, I happen to live in an authoritarian country and I'm kinda more inclined to be not ok with the company that removes access to apps that fail to give up user data to government crooks.

You claim that users 'agree' to this when they buy Apple devices. But to what exactly that agree? That apple can take away any app they use, any time? Even the one that was perfectly available when buying the device?

The 'deal' you get with apple by buying their hardware can be altered at any time, so the only thing you can do is pray that they don't alter it any further.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#626
post #415

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Remember when AT&T (“Ma Bell”) was broken up (“Divestiture”) into a bunch of independent companies (regional bells, RBOCs, “Baby Bells”) as Bell Labs spun off into a set of companies? Yeah, the AT&T you see today is actually the largest of those RBOCs (PacBell) that went around and reacquired all of the other RBOCS and changed its name to AT&T (leaving the original AT&T using the name for its continuing backhaul/whol…

No, it didn't. Verizon is modern Bell Atlantic and also went about buying up RBOCs. Your point is valid, they did just remonopolize, but it's not like AT&T is just AT&T again.

GTE was not an RBOC. Verizon is GTE+BellAtlantic+Vodafone-Vodafone.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#627

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You failed to address the argument. In a market where both options exist why should one change to be like the one you prefer?

You failed to understand that there are no options for iPhone apps market, and users are open to all kinds of abuse: by Apple themselves and by authoritarian governments like in China or Russia. Now, I happen to live in an authoritarian country and I'm kinda more inclined to be not ok with the company that removes access to apps that fail to give up user data to government crooks. You claim that users 'agree' to this…

Apple doesn't need me to carry water for them, but you're actually damaging the case for open hardware and software by carrying on like a porkchop because closed hardware and software is also available.

> You claim that users 'agree' to this when they buy Apple devices.

I claimed no such thing. Read my words directly and please don't put your own spin on them.

In a market where both options exist why should one change to be like the one you prefer?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#628

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

> I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer.

Because most of them don't really care until it directly impacts them, and because Apple spends a huge amount of money on their marketing.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#629
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but why? Why not demand to be able to have control over your own devices?

Because we don’t want control over our Nintendo switch or iPhone.

I still wish OtherOS[1] was still a thing on PlayStation systems.

[1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OtherOS

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#630

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They literally threatened to cancel the second account. This is what the injunction is about, and the judge ruled that Apple can't cancel the second account and prevent Epic from using Mac tools to legally develop Unreal. You would know this if you read the injunction that is being discussed...

That's not what the judge ruled at all so I'm confused by your statements about reading the injunction. All the judge "ruled" was that Apple needs to maintain the current status quo of their other arrangements until they actually rule on the main cause of the case. If Apple wins, then there's another matter to attend to. If they don't, then the status quo is still maintained and the matter is over. What the judge act…

Apple threatened to cancel Epic's second account and cut off Epic from its macOS tools starting Aug 28th; Epic said that unfairly threatened its other lines of businesses and a court should prevent Apple from doing so until the antitrust suit finished (and should also reinstate Fortnite until the suit finished); the judge ruled that Apple cutting off Epic's second account from the Unreal tools before the court case finished was unreasonable and legally prevented it from doing so, but that banning Fortnite was not unreasonable and did not legally prevent it from doing so.

Judges make legal decisions. If a judge says you can't do something, that means it's illegal; judges can rule whether a future action is illegal, including based on a threat, and that's what this injunction does. This injunction references Apple's threat and, ultimately, says that they legally can't do it (for now), just as Epic can't legally force Apple to reinstate Fortnite (for now).

But anyway, as to your original assertion that this injunction is unrelated to Apple's threat to terminate Epic's account with the Apple Developer Program, here's a direct quote from the injunction:

"THEREFORE, APPLE AND ALL PERSONS IN ACTIVE CONCERT OR PARTICIPATION WITH APPLE, ARE TEMPORARILY RESTRAINED from taking adverse action against Epic Games with respect to restricting, suspending or terminating any affiliate of Epic Games, such as Epic International, from Apple’s Developer Program [italics mine]"

Also, re: your assertion that "If Apple wins, then there's another matter to attend to. If they don't, then the status quo is still maintained and the matter is over." — I don't think anyone involved in the antitrust case, including the judge, ruled or believes anything like "the matter is over" and "the status quo is maintained" if Apple is found to be violating antitrust law. The status quo legally could not be maintained by Apple in that case. What exactly Apple would have to do would depend on what precisely the judge ruled, but maintaining the status quo would not be an option.

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