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Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

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Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#611

Post by jsmith45 »

parasubvert wrote: post #311
bananaface wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They aren't suing Apple for being a monopoly, they're suing Apple for violating the Sherman Act. https://twitter.com/EskilSteenberg/status/129752027579013939...

Which they clearly haven’t violated, by any historical or legal measure. But we will see. And also, it’s up to the DOJ to litigate this, not competitors. They don’t have the standing.

They absolutely do have standing. 15 U.S.C. §15 allows for injured parties of anti-trust violation to sue for treble damages. This is separate to and beyond any criminal charges the DOJ can bring.

If courts determine that Apples behavior violates anti-trust laws, it is unlikely that they would find that Epic was not an injured party.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#612

Post by wayneftw »

pjmlp wrote: post #561
wayneftw wrote: post #467

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This lawsuit is taking place in the United States just like most of my business. It doesn’t matter what’s happening in the rest of the world.

It matters to the judge.

Care to cite your reference?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#613

Post by wayneftw »

wcarey wrote: post #490
wayneftw wrote: post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And my argument is that some harm is already happening to some consumers [0, 1] and some more harm is already happening to the many, many developers who have complained about Apple's reprehensible behavior surrounding their app store. With a law that requires Apple to open their platform to allow actually usable sideloading and/or competing app stores, we'd have removed more harm than we've added. [0] Me, for example…

That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation. There's a spectrum of what you're allowed to do software-wise with various computing devices you purchase. One the one extreme, you have something like a washing machine. It's a computing device running a particular suite of software that is essentially impossible for the end user to modify or r…

> That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation.

Not really, because there is no balance. Way more harm is done in the name of protecting people than is done by allowing freedoms.

The rest of your argument is predicated upon there being some kind of balance. There isn't one.

You don't need to look any further than The War on Drugs to see this. It's already been scientifically proven that letting people do what they want is far better for society. The only people who work to keep drugs illegal are those who benefit from them being illegal. Same thing here.

There's not much more to say about this. You're never going to convince me that removing freedom is better for society when people will always have the choice to remove it for themselves by making the right choices about who to associate with or who to do business with.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#614

Post by ksk »

scarface74 wrote: post #610
ksk wrote: post #608

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What has that got to do with PCs? All you're describing are flaws in other products - namely Google's search. Google does a terrible job because they promote illegitimate sources over legitimate ones. The solution is to not use Google.

What does this have to do with PCs? Your question was about PCs Are you saying a grandma starts a PC and immediately knows about SourceForge? So which search engine do you suggest? What if there were a secondary App Store on phones? Selling a “free” version of some popular app? Why would the same issue of slimy developers who game the system on PCs not do the same on phones? On the other hand, isn’t that exactly what…

>What does this have to do with PCs? Your question was about PCs

Your answer wasn't about PCs, it was about flaws in other products/services.

>So which search engine do you suggest? What if there were a secondary App Store on phones? Selling a “free” version of some popular app?

I would suggest them to not install apps unless it was recommended by someone they trust and they were confident that it wasn't junk. This would apply to PC software, smartphone apps and everything else. Its no different than how you go about finding a trusted mechanic, or a pest control service or a trusted handyman or whatever.

Curation can happen in many ways. Apple could recommend it, your friend who knows about "computers" could, maybe its a magazine/website you trust, etc, etc. The point is about choice and freedom.

We get to make the rules of the economy we want to operate in. The entire purpose of the government is to serve our needs, and if its not doing that we should change the rules. Both sides can make their cases. I am happy to oppose Apples oppressive policies (in this case).

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#615

Post by wayneftw »

scarface74 wrote: post #498
wayneftw wrote: post #487

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Are you saying that viruses, malware, ransomware, keyloggers, multiple toolbars have not been a problem in general over two decades? Not for me. > You remember when “reputable” sites like SourceForge were bundling adware? Sure. What's your point? I think I know: You would gladly trade the freedom of the general population for security. If so - I'm sorry to hear that. If not, maybe you should think about what you're…

> Not for me. So would Apple be better off serving you or the general population? I think the numbers speak for themselves. > I think I know: You would gladly trade the freedom of the general population for security. If so - I'm sorry to hear that. If not, maybe you should think about what you're saying because you're on the wrong side of the debate. Yes because when the founding fathers came up with the phrase they…

We are also perfectly free to enforce our existing anti-trust laws and make new laws for important digital platforms as we see fit.

Seems like a better option than just letting big corps do whatever they want. There's more of us than them.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#616

Post by wcarey »

wayneftw wrote: post #613
wcarey wrote: post #490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation. There's a spectrum of what you're allowed to do software-wise with various computing devices you purchase. One the one extreme, you have something like a washing machine. It's a computing device running a particular suite of software that is essentially impossible for the end user to modify or r…

> That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation. Not really, because there is no balance. Way more harm is done in the name of protecting people than is done by allowing freedoms. The rest of your argument is predicated upon there being some kind of balance. There isn't one. You don't need to look any further than The War on Drugs to see thi…

You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. The we each can make the right choice about whether or not we as individuals should do business with them. We should allow them that freedom. I'm convinced!

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#617

Post by wcarey »

badsectoracula wrote: post #569
wcarey wrote: post #555

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not convinced the problems are larger (or, at least, not that they're larger for most people; some people are seriously inconvenience by Apple's policies. I once hit a hard roadblock trying to develop something for the iPhone and had to switch to Android exclusive development; so it goes). And I think having different organizations exploring different tradeoffs in this space is a valuable thing. There are platfor…

I'm not sure what sort of tradeoff is there to explore: there aren't any real (not perceived, like prefering Apple's control that you do not really lose since you can have the option - even by default - stick with Apple, i mean actually real) positives for anyone involved outside of Apple. But the negatives is currently for the users not being in control over the devices they bought (i really cannot fathom how people…

Perhaps an opportunity to cultivate some empathy and listen carefully to people whose relationship with computational devices is very different from yours. Telling people that their concerns are imaginary isn't a good way to persuade them.

I know people who break from what you call the practical options in both directions -- some who reject smartphones altogether and live their lives without them, doing all their digital work on computers that they have full control over -- and some who use only the stock apps on their phone and wish that app stores were not a thing. They want an entirely managed experience.

Neal Stephenson's essay In the Beginning was the Command Line gets at some of this nicely. Some people are, as he says, Eloi and some Morlocks. That's OK.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#618

Post by wayneftw »

wcarey wrote: post #616
wayneftw wrote: post #613

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation. Not really, because there is no balance. Way more harm is done in the name of protecting people than is done by allowing freedoms. The rest of your argument is predicated upon there being some kind of balance. There isn't one. You don't need to look any further than The War on Drugs to see thi…

You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store. The we each can make the right choice about whether or not we as individuals should do business with them. We should allow them that freedom. I'm convinced!

> You've made a compelling argument that Apple should be allowed to, in their freedom, do whatever they feel appropriate with regard to their own App store.

They're free to try. There's more of us than them though and we're also free to continue enforcing our existing anti-trust laws and make new ones for important digital platforms.

I advocate for freedom for the common man. What are you doing here?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#619

Post by scarface74 »

wayneftw wrote: post #615
scarface74 wrote: post #498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Not for me. So would Apple be better off serving you or the general population? I think the numbers speak for themselves. > I think I know: You would gladly trade the freedom of the general population for security. If so - I'm sorry to hear that. If not, maybe you should think about what you're saying because you're on the wrong side of the debate. Yes because when the founding fathers came up with the phrase they…

We are also perfectly free to enforce our existing anti-trust laws and make new laws for important digital platforms as we see fit. Seems like a better option than just letting big corps do whatever they want. There's more of us than them.

Can you name one time where the government was involved in tech where it didn’t do more harm than good in the last 30 years? The DMCA? COPPA? You actually trust the same group of representatives that were drilling Zuckerberg about Twitter’s policies to understand tech?

Even in California where they passed laws that were suppose to “help” Uber and Lyft drivers had the effect of making it harder for truck drivers who wanted to contract to do so.

Let’s just come up with “Five Year Plans”, because feels cant fathom that 50% of the US willingly made a choice to be in the “walled gardened”. Just like after everything that happened with the Microsoft and the Justice Department, “the Year of Linux on the Desktop” never happened and everyone is not compiling their own operating system.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#620

Post by scarface74 »

ksk wrote: post #614
scarface74 wrote: post #610

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What does this have to do with PCs? Your question was about PCs Are you saying a grandma starts a PC and immediately knows about SourceForge? So which search engine do you suggest? What if there were a secondary App Store on phones? Selling a “free” version of some popular app? Why would the same issue of slimy developers who game the system on PCs not do the same on phones? On the other hand, isn’t that exactly what…

>What does this have to do with PCs? Your question was about PCs Your answer wasn't about PCs, it was about flaws in other products/services. >So which search engine do you suggest? What if there were a secondary App Store on phones? Selling a “free” version of some popular app? I would suggest them to not install apps unless it was recommended by someone they trust and they were confident that it wasn't junk. This w…

I would suggest them to not install apps unless it was recommended by someone they trust and they were confident that it wasn't junk.

You mean like friends recommending Firefox and someone naturally going to Google to search for “Firefox” and the top link being malware? If someone recommended an app and they found a fake version on the third party App Store how would they know the difference?

How has that worked out for the past 30 years on computers where we are always hearing about yet another ransomware attack?

The point is about choice and freedom.

You mean like “freedom” to choose an Android over an iPhone?

We get to make the rules of the economy we want to operate in. The entire purpose of the government is to serve our needs

Actually you don’t. The executive branch is not chosen by “the people” it’s chosen by the Electoral College which has gone against the popular vote twice in the last 20 years.

The Senate is chosen by the states where each state regardless of population gets two Senators. 46% of the Senators represent around 25% of the population.

The judicial branch is chosen by the two least representatives parts of the government - the executive branch and the Senate.

If you think not being able to sideload apps on a device you didn’t have to buy is, I wonder how you feel about the “War on Drugs”, “War on Crime”, civil forfeiture, imminent domain used to take property and give it to more profitable businesses and the President unilaterally telling a business it has to sell to another company? Is this the government you want to give more power too?

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