Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#481

Post by ksk » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

msh wrote: post #103

badsectoracula wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ah oh, the "security" power word has been brought up, time to turn off our brains and accept everything i guess :-(

No, seriously, how would you build a computer platform that everybody, even computer iliterate people can use and install programs without constantly ending up with malware, scams and other nasty stuff that steals their money or information? The apple iOS model seems to be the most promising here. It comes with huge tradeoffs in user control but for a large part of the worlds population I think its the right choice.

You can have a kiosk mode in any OS without giving up freedoms for people who don't need to be straight jacketed. I don't want to beg Apple or Samsung or Google or Microsoft or anyone for the ability to program a computer that I purchased.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#482

Post by Thorentis » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:50 PM UTC

shados wrote: post #475

Betelgeuse90 wrote: post #355

Some of my highlights: - "Irreparable Harm: The issue of irreparable harm focuses on the harm caused by not maintaining the status quo, as opposed to the separate and distinct element of a remedy under the likelihood of success factor. Here the court's evaluation is guided by the general notion that “self-inflicted wounds are not irreparable injury.” - "While the Court anticipates experts will opine that Apple’s 30 p…

> the Court doubts that an expert would suggest a zero percent alternative It's unfortunate that the percentage cut ends up overshadowing the real antitrust issue, which is that Apple (and Google) essentially has the power to make or break any arbitrary business that relies on their platform. They base it on vague and loosely enforced rules, which means companies never know if tomorrow is the end. Having a locked pla…

Nobody is forcing Epic to use Apple's platform though. It never used to be the case, that every device you own must be able to play every game you want. You can already play Fortnite on your PC. Apple cannot stop you from owning a PC, so Apple cannot stop you from playing Fortnite. Yes, Apple is a gatekeeper for its platform. But we've known this forever. Sony is a gatekeeper for the playstation, and Microsoft is a gatekeeper for the Xbox. If developers want the lowest friction possible when releasing games, use a platform where you can release your own store (which Epic already has).

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#483

Post by scott31 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:53 PM UTC

alkonaut wrote: post #441

henryfjordan wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why not? Easy: a link off their site doesn't earn them any money. They want to you stay on their domain.

Is there a news site that does the opposite? Always cites sources, provide ample links throughout text? that’s the site I’d subscribe to.

There is something called Hacker News

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#484

Post by freeflight » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:54 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #53

badsectoracula wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes but why? Why not demand to be able to have control over your own devices?

Because we don’t want control over our Nintendo switch or iPhone.

If that'd be true then the homebrew scene wouldn't be a thing, but it very much is a thing particularly on Nintendo products.

It's dangerous to haphazardly disregard that as meaningless, by extension it's such movements that fight for very valid consumer rights, like actually owning the hardware that people pay money for.

When I buy a piece of hardware I expect to own it, to run on it whatever I want, to be able to repair it, not to be a "tolerated guest" with only limited access and everything thrown my way to make self-repair as difficult as possible by design.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#485

Post by kergonath » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:56 PM UTC

dwaite wrote: post #451

gtsteve wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it would have been more self serving for Epic to strike a backroom deal, they've got the clout to do so and it'd probably be better for their shareholders' blood pressure. On the other hand, if this plays out the way they want, then they get 100% of the income (less overheads) which would be an absolute win for them. I don't think their motivation matters however - as an ISV getting kicked off the app store i…

They tried striking a backroom deal first, with a 'and wouldn't it be nice if you gave this to other people as well'. It didn't seem like any sort of legitimate offer - for one, the "deal" would be that Apple would host fortnite for free, review it for free, and make 0% on in-app purchases. Epic also didn't edit the letter properly and accidentally left an "Android" in rather than changing it to "iOS", so presumably…

And they had the marketing machine ready the second they sued, just to remove any doubt they were acting in good faith.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#486

Post by wcarey » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:58 PM UTC

simion314 wrote: post #448

wcarey wrote: post #366

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As I’ve said, tradeoffs. The raspis I’m talking about run about $100 for a complete system. Not nothing, but accessible to many people in Apple’s target demographic. They’re ideally suited for what you’re aiming at. One example jumps to mind - wasn’t Facebook running a side loaded VPN that was doing some unsavory things until Apple banned it? I think the place to look for that sort of thing right now would be compani…

Sure Apple customers have more money, but hopefully when you buy your next gadget the old one could be sold or donated to someone less wealthy. The possible bad future I can see is this - judge decides Apple can do whatever they want - Google says "Great, then we can do the same" and all Android phones get locked - Microsoft then also says thinks "Fuck, we are suckers, so they force the PC makers to DRM the computers…

That's a real possibility, and part of the greater tradeoff that happens with most technolgies: as they grow more powerful society applies more controls to them to prevent their ill use. Drunken horse riding is less regulated than drunken driving is less regulated than drunken nuclear submarine driving.

Happily, there's already a thriving ecosystem of alternate linux-based platforms that allow the sort of freedom that we both want and enjoy.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#487

Post by wayneftw » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 9:59 PM UTC

scarface74 wrote: post #322

wayneftw wrote: post #162

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses. Most of my problems have been with restrictions that Apple has put on me in their Mac and iOS product lines. > Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stores. Yes it is. You, as a consumer c…

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses. Are you saying that viruses, malware, ransomware, keyloggers, multiple toolbars have not been a problem in general over two decades? You remember when “reputable” sites like SourceForge were bundling adware?

> Are you saying that viruses, malware, ransomware, keyloggers, multiple toolbars have not been a problem in general over two decades?

Not for me.

> You remember when “reputable” sites like SourceForge were bundling adware?

Sure. What's your point?

I think I know: You would gladly trade the freedom of the general population for security.

If so - I'm sorry to hear that. If not, maybe you should think about what you're saying because you're on the wrong side of the debate.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#488

Post by freeflight » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 10:01 PM UTC

ericmay wrote: post #51

badsectoracula wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is having control over what you can install on your own PC and being in a position to actually choose from where to install it a nightmare? Is being in control and having choice a nightmare?

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

> Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare.

As somebody who's been looking and working in it for decades, I don't see it?

To me the actual nightmare are closed walled gardens giving users a false sense of security about the software they offer on their services as supposedly all being "vetted".

And because by now the mobile space is the biggest target there is, malicious actors have shifted their attack vectors accordingly [0].

Even with these walled gardens in place, we've reached a point where the mobile app ecosystem is going trough its own phase of "You need this Norton/McAfee/blah product to keep your device secure/optimized!" just like the PC ecosystem did and still does.

As such the "gatekeepers" have effectively failed at gatekeeping anything that ain't explicit sexual content.

[0] https://www.zdnet.com/article/warning-over-hidden-apps-as-mo...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#489

Post by kergonath » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 10:08 PM UTC

burnte wrote: post #274

kergonath wrote: post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don’t disagree with you, but again, they are not taking away anyone’s license apart from Epic’s . This is a fact, and there is no way around it. Taking away Epic’s license will have effects on other developers, but this is not the same as revoking their licenses. The OP was not about a constructive discussion of the consequences of that, it was about Apple going after other developers. Which is factually wrong.

Taking away and revoking are the same. The legal work is revoke, they're revoking Epic's license to use MacOS and iOS development tools. That was beyond the scope of the violation, which was an App Store rule violation. The goal of that move was to prevent Epic from even developing non-App Store content, which I don't think anyone could not foresee it affecting other developers, which I'm fairly sure was the intent.…

> Taking away and revoking are the same. The legal work is revoke, they're revoking Epic's license to use MacOS and iOS development tools.

Sorry, my sentence was poorly worded. They threatened to revoke Epic’s license, not the other developers’ (which, again, is what the OP claimed and is specifically what I disputed).

I think they did go overboard with the intent to push Epic to settle, yes. And Epic were ready for a mud fight and called their bluff. It looks like the move was a warning, though, and I don’t think they really would do it, at least not for long: they know how important the Unreal Engine is for the platform. If an agreement is found quickly, the impact on others developers is nil. At least in the short term; this brings trust issues over the longer term.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#490

Post by wcarey » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 10:09 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #476

wcarey wrote: post #312

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My argument is that some harm does befall at least some consumers. You might judge that harm worth the other tradeoffs, but it’s not zero.

And my argument is that some harm is already happening to some consumers [0, 1] and some more harm is already happening to the many, many developers who have complained about Apple's reprehensible behavior surrounding their app store. With a law that requires Apple to open their platform to allow actually usable sideloading and/or competing app stores, we'd have removed more harm than we've added. [0] Me, for example…

That's good - we've moved from no harm to a balancing competing harms, which I think reflects the reality of the situation.

There's a spectrum of what you're allowed to do software-wise with various computing devices you purchase.

One the one extreme, you have something like a washing machine. It's a computing device running a particular suite of software that is essentially impossible for the end user to modify or replace. Many (most?) embedded systems are like this.

On the other extreme, you've got open hardware platforms like the Arduino where you can do whatever you want with the software for a very large value of "whatever you want".

The Raspberry Pi is in the middle, but very close to the Arduino. A Nintendo is somewhere in the middle but close do the dishwasher. Android devices are somewhere in the middle, but closer to the Arduino than the dishwasher (though this varies between devices and manufacturers). iOS devices are, again, somewhere in the middle. Much is allowed. Some things are not. OS X devices are closer to the Arduino than iOS devices are. That's also an intentional choice by Apple.

The placement of iOS along that spectrum is an intentional choice by Apple that customers have proven to support by buying iOS devices in prodigious quantity.

It's not obvious to me that taking a market leading choice in that spectrum and removing it produces less harm in the balance. It might, but it also might not. I'd be inclined to let people vote with their wallet as long as viable alternatives abound, which they do.