Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#321

Post by staunch » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

Shivetya wrote: post #60

IvanK_net wrote: post #20

I still wonder why so many people buy devices, where the only software you could run has to be approved by the manufacturer. I think we should speak more about this fact, so that people think twice before they buy some device. I only make websites, but I am worried, that at some point, Apple would want me to pay them, so that my website is openable on their devices.

Because it does not matter to the vast majority of people. In fact many appreciate that there is a gate keeper. There are so many categories where you cannot load software outside of what the manufacturer provides that you cannot list them. It would also be impractical to allow otherwise for many of these. Then you end up with warranty issues. Would you allow people to load software of their choice for their automobi…

> In fact many appreciate that there is a gate keeper.

Just like people "love relevant ads" that Google provides People never love gatekeepers or ads. They love secure smartphones and relevant web search results. Users enjoy the benefits a gatekeeper can provide, but they would be just as happy to get the benefits without the downsides.

It was reasonable for Apple to use gatekeeping at first. It was simple and workable. But after more than a decade, they should have something a lot better.

Like app sandboxing and web technology-based apps that can be installed from outside the App Store while maintaining the integrity of your device.

Apple is no longer acting in their users best interests, they're acting in their own. And they're exploiting their market share to do so, in an extremely anti-competitive way.

In the short-term it's a cash grab for Apple and in the long-term its a poison that will eat at the company's foundation. They should even the playing field and compete on it as they do so well.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#322

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:44 PM UTC

wayneftw wrote: post #162

ericmay wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, you just look at the PC ecosystem and you can see the nightmare. Like others,I prefer Apple to have a tightly controlled App Store and believe that the benefits far outweigh the ability to install software from a 3rd party App Store. For example, Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stor…

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses. Most of my problems have been with restrictions that Apple has put on me in their Mac and iOS product lines. > Apple requiring Sign In with Apple (when signin with Google/Facebook are implemented) where you can hide your email address. That’s not possible with multiple app stores. Yes it is. You, as a consumer c…

I’ve been running PCs and Macs in my house for over 2 decades. I have not once had a problem with viruses.

Are you saying that viruses, malware, ransomware, keyloggers, multiple toolbars have not been a problem in general over two decades?

You remember when “reputable” sites like SourceForge were bundling adware?

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#323

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:46 PM UTC

klmadfejno wrote: post #111

msh wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Its a security nightmare.

Then make it hard, with a scary pop up, so technical people can make an informed choice and tech illiterates cannot.

Were technical people informed that installing Fortnite outside of Google Play made their phones vulnerable?

https://arstechnica.com/gadgets/2018/08/fortnites-android-vu...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#324

Post by cableshaft » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:50 PM UTC

naravara wrote: post #271

dgellow wrote: post #128

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have? Because the alternative to what Epic want (so the current situation) isn't a completely open platform but one where Apple is the only boss and can do almost whatever they want. Having more bosses in competition for parts of the market is an improvement toward a more open system.

> Ok, but do we agree that Epic getting what they want would result in a more open platform than what we currently have? I think Epic getting what they want will slowly hollow out the available market for smaller indie developers who can't compete with with the scale of the big boys. Insofar as Apple's app store falls short, it's often in the various ways it fails at providing a truly even playing field between Joe R…

I think it will just offer alternative places where you might get attention that you otherwise wouldn't. Apple already has extremely restrictive and garbage discovery mechanisms on the App Store, and up until now has squashed all app-based attempts to make it better or provide an alternative discovery mechanism.

If alternatives were allowed to exist, those stores could be built with better discovery mechanisms or allow a smaller pond where you might be able to be the big fish.

As opposed to a vast ocean (App Store) where you've got to be damn lucky or have major connections to be anything more than a minnow as an independent.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#325

Post by skocznymroczny » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:51 PM UTC

AnIdiotOnTheNet wrote: post #229

wayneftw wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I support any gang that wants to give developers and users more freedom of choice. What do you support?

Freedom of choice, like which store to buy their Epic Game Store exclusive games at... oh wait.

It's funny that people gang up on Epic Game Store exclusives when Steam has been doing exclusives for over a decade. Not only Valve games, but almost every AAA game that isn't made by Ubisoft or EA is basically just a code to unlock the game on Steam. You need to run all the updates through Steam, microtransactions through Steam, start the game each time by Steam. You can't live without Steam for most AAA games.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#326

Post by scarface74 » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

latexr wrote: post #316

scarface74 wrote: post #307

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You mean like all of the shady developers who are already in the App Store selling in app purchases for loot boxes, useless virtual currency and play to win games? I’m surprised (not really) that people are defending Epic but would never defend King (Candy Crush) or the makers of FarmVille. I would much rather see BaseCamp (Hey) or the company that was selling virtual workouts with real trainers take them to court. I…

> I would much rather see BaseCamp (Hey) or the company that was selling virtual workouts with real trainers take them to court. I wouldn’t, because they’d be crushed. I’d rather that if someone takes Apple to court, it’s someone with the resources to make a dent. > I’m surprised (not really) that people are defending Epic but would never defend King (Candy Crush) or the makers of FarmVille. Even if you think they’re…

Who has a better story to tell

Epic “we want to sell useless virtual goods with 0 marginal cost” or

BaseCamp - “we run a small business, pay our employees well, always sought to be profitable instead of VC funding, etc.”

Everybody eats up the small business angle. Besides DHH is a lot less slimy than anyone who Epic parades out.

If they started a GoFundMe, I would donate to their legal defense. What Epic wants will probably never happen. What BaseCamp wants - just basically to be treated like Netflix and the other “reader apps” is much more realistic and it’s fair to the actual indy developers of cross platform useful apps who could do their own marketing.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#327

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:53 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #132

slipheen wrote: post #129

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think that's correct. They were threatening to block Epic's developer account, which would make future engine releases difficult.

From a comment by onion2k in another thread: > This is a quote from the letter that Apple sent to Epic; >> If your membership is terminated, you may no longer submit apps to the App Store, and your apps still available for distribution will be removed. You will also lose access to the following programs, technologies, and capabilities:" >> [...] >> - Engineering efforts to improve hardware and software performance of…

I think you're missing the largest part of that, though, and that's what makes your statement incorrect. Apple is not blocking anything that Epic can do with the Unreal Engine. What they're threatening is to revoke the assistance that Apple has always provided Epic as a partner. When WWDC and other presentations roll around, Apple always has presentations from Epic on new games that are coming out. That partnership has, in the past, included early access to dev tools and frameworks (like Metal and ARKit), direct access to engineers at Apple who help Epic optimize their software for Apple hardware, and also a direct feedback channel for licensed developers using the tools that Apple and Epic developed together. Apple is saying that, by violating the terms and losing their developer license, Epic would also be losing this partner access. After all, how can you partner with someone that's actively working against you?

So, to be clear, development for the Unreal Engine would absolutely be impacted but that is not the same thing as "blocking Unreal Engine". Apple can't block the Unreal Engine as a whole since developers license that separately from Epic.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#328

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

cwhiz wrote: post #91

dgellow wrote: post #32

Could someone explain what was Apple trying to do? I really don't get their position in this story. It seemed obvious that trying to completely block Epic's Unreal Engine would be causing more legal issues. What is their strategy here? It feels that they actually wanted things to escalate, though I cannot see why they would do this.

Apple threatened to revoke Epic’s “Apple Developer” account due to repeated violations of the developer policy and agreement. I am sure Apple did it to try and bully Epic into settling.

Or, you know, they did it because that's exactly what it says will happen when someone violates the terms of Apple's developer agreement...

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#329

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:55 PM UTC

dgellow wrote: post #35

IvanK_net wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Each app or game, which runs on iOS devices, should pay Apple 30% of their revenue. These are billions of dollars each year. The Fortnite game wanted to avoid this fee of 30% by making the game free to download, but the users could pay directly inside the game (the payment mechanism did not go through Apple). If more apps or games do that, Apple would lose a lot of money. Also, Apple App store is the only way to get…

You're talking about the reason Apple had to remove Fortnite following Epic Game's decision to add their own payment option. That doesn't explain why they reacted so aggressively towards Epic's Unreal Engine by threatening to block it.

They did not threaten to block Unreal Engine. Read it again.

Re: Apple ordered to not block Epic’s Unreal Engine, Fortnite to stay off App Store

#330

Post by dkonofalski » Tue, Aug 25, 2020, 4:58 PM UTC

yupyup54133 wrote: post #262

I'm confused. Why doesn't Apple just use their "Termination for Convenience" clause that lets them terminate any contract with a 30 day notice?

Because, let's be honest, Apple doesn't want to set a precedent that they'll do that without first trying to resolve issues with developers. It's a super bad look for them to just immediately terminate any agreement they have issue with and would just push developers away from attempting development on the platform. Apple has all the leverage in this situation and a ton of good will built up among developers. They want to give Epic a chance to admit wrongdoing and resolve the issue.