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Japan facing credit card number shortage

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Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#341

Post by corty »

tW4r wrote: post #330
corty wrote: post #285

Earlier quoted context omitted.

With lots of BS like EIDAS remote "signatures". I wouldn't necessarily trust this for anything important.

What are the downsides of EIDAS? They’re widely accepted and used in my home country and I personally have a great experience, although I wish there was a way I could generate my own private key and or at least acquire it so I could script my own solutions rather than depending on third party providers

Most of EIDAS is quite fine, but there are really stupid ideas in there. Remote signatures are signatures where the key user is not the key owner. The key is located with some service provider who signs with the user's key on request. The security of this is as useless as it sounds, but for many situations here in Germany it is the only option because there are no officially accredited providers for signature card certificates anymore. Therefore it is all the bother of digital signatures with the insecurity of analogue signature stamps...

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#342

Post by tW4r »

corty wrote: post #341
tW4r wrote: post #330

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What are the downsides of EIDAS? They’re widely accepted and used in my home country and I personally have a great experience, although I wish there was a way I could generate my own private key and or at least acquire it so I could script my own solutions rather than depending on third party providers

Most of EIDAS is quite fine, but there are really stupid ideas in there. Remote signatures are signatures where the key user is not the key owner. The key is located with some service provider who signs with the user's key on request. The security of this is as useless as it sounds, but for many situations here in Germany it is the only option because there are no officially accredited providers for signature card ce…

Oh yes that is exactly what I meant by not having access to the keys, I use one of such services myself. I do however consider them a bit more secure than signature stamps as should the provider become compromised, their upstream certificate would be revoked, to my understanding this would invalidate all of the signatures. The same as any CA

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#343

Post by romanoderoma »

joshfraser wrote: post #96

What's crazy is that we've had public key encryption for over 40 years, and we're still publishing magic numbers on little pieces of plastic that give whoever sees them the power to take all our money without our consent.

So now you have replaced the magic number with a public key stored somewhere in your wallet together with the CC...

Benefits?

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#345

Post by cdongrun »

Symbiote wrote: post #194
cdongrun wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the us has had nfc and chip for years. we still support swiping too. your statement was true for a few short years when europe did chip first. which was much easier there, since credit cards were not as common, and didn't exist since 1950 like in america. we don't use a pin, because that doesn't help with fraud. most fraud is either online, or someone at the store, who can easily skim or see your pin. online you can…

The USA is still rolling out chip support, with a date of 1 October for the remaining holdouts to use it. The rest of the world reached that point around 15 years ago, including countries with high credit card use (UK, France) and high debit card use (Northern Europe).

this is pain wrong. i lived in france for 4 years. debit cards are common, credit cards a lot less. no, a debit card with a visa logo is not a credit card -credit means you buy it on credit, and pay for it later. they also have their own system called blue. lots of people in both france and uk pay in cash as well. most people in america don't even carry cash. 15 years ago chip was not rolled out fully. 10 years ago it was not when I was living there. and a whole lot of places needed cash, period.

debit cards, as I originally said, have always had a pin in america, so i'm not sure why you are comparing euro debit cards, to american credit cards.

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#346

Post by cdongrun »

danielscrubs wrote: post #197
cdongrun wrote: post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

the us has had nfc and chip for years. we still support swiping too. your statement was true for a few short years when europe did chip first. which was much easier there, since credit cards were not as common, and didn't exist since 1950 like in america. we don't use a pin, because that doesn't help with fraud. most fraud is either online, or someone at the store, who can easily skim or see your pin. online you can…

In US, with over 270,000 reports, credit card fraud was the most common type of identity theft last year and more than doubled from 2017 to 2019.

i like how you expanded physical card theft to general 'card fraud,' but didn't expand it to 'general' identity theft. in fact, why not expand it to just 'crime of any kind' and say a pin on your physical card will prevent your car from being stolen.

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#347

Post by majewsky »

PascLeRasc wrote: post #334
me_me_me wrote: post #258

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What's crazy is that we've had C and other higher level languages for over 40 years, and we're still maintaining banking and industry backends in Cobol or other old tech. The thing is something that works, and works well is hard to displace. Especially when it makes money. And when you are running a business and you have to choose: - keep making money - update system that is making money and hope it will work and i…

Passphrases for credit card numbers, maybe? It'd be easier to remember "bobcat reissue onscreen crook" than a series of 15-16 numbers and you'd have essentially unlimited versions.

You'd have to limit yourself to a set of reasonably well-known words (and potentially weed out words that sound too alike). If we're very optimistic and assume the final set has 10,000 words, then one word has the same amount of entropy as 4 digits. Therefore four words and 16 digits are the same size of address space. You'd need at least five words. And you're quickly getting to the point where it's getting problematic to print these on the card in a font size that everyone can read (elderly citizens with bad eyesight included).

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#348

Post by majewsky »

Tijdreiziger wrote: post #331
nottorp wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's nice... as long as you only buy stuff from your country.

I'm of the opinion that the EU should work to make all these national payment systems cross-compatible. They've already done it for regular money transfers (SEPA). They've already done it for government identification (eIDAS). Now it's time to put an end to the national insularity of online payment systems (NL: iDEAL, BE: Bancontact, DE: SOFORT, SE: Swish, PL: Przelewy24, ...)

Honest question: What's the point of even having these online payment systems when there is SEPA? When I pay by credit card, they send me through a UI flow where I authenticate with my online banking (from the bank who issued my CC). Why can they not just do the same with SEPA and redirect me to my online banking to have me authorize a SEPA money transfer?

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#349

Post by michannne »

anfilt wrote: post #306
michannne wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems ridiculous to have to buy a device just to use my card. I would have to carry it around as well otherwise I wouldn't be able to use my card online

It's honestly the issue is the card form factor. If you ditched the card form factor you could use USB or other common interfaces. The card form factor limits or requires it's own interface. Current cards with chips or contact less payment use a form of connection that PCs and Phones don't have integrated.

The point is to have a way for the user to use their card without a device, and a way to keep the encryption. If you have a USB you've lost point #1

Re: Japan facing credit card number shortage

#350

Post by michannne »

ryukafalz wrote: post #310
michannne wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seems ridiculous to have to buy a device just to use my card. I would have to carry it around as well otherwise I wouldn't be able to use my card online

If you were able to do this I think you’d find card readers built into laptops would be much more ubiquitous. It’s very commonly an option on business laptops already (probably thanks to the US government making heavy use of contact smartcards). And as for transactions on mobile phones, most of them have NFC as well; contactless payments could work there too.

There's no reason that with chip technology as ubiquitous as it is that card readers shouldn't be more widespread. The fact that they aren't right now shows that the market isn't there
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