Rethinking the App Store • Hacker News Board

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#171

Post by simonh » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:07 PM UTC

auggierose wrote: post #160

jakelazaroff wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great! This, but unironically. It's not hard to think of an example where "legislation that specifies APIs and designs user interfaces" is unambiguously good — say, accessibility requirements for commercial software.

I think that's pretty bad. A development shop shouldn't be forced to follow all sorts of accessibility requirements.

Accessibility UIs that are designed by committee and set in stone. No innovation allowed, by law. Gah, ironically Apple's platforms have the best accessibility in the industry regardless of legislation. They pretty much always have.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#172

Post by nemothekid » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

dkersten wrote: post #65

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for…

>The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users.

It's hard for me to reconcile this, and I keep seeing that 3rd party app stores would be better for users, but it all seems very handwavy. You would think this would be an easy point to prove as Android has had alternative app stores for years, but there seem to be no winners there. I'm not sure how having to download app specific app stores (i.e. Epic's app store) is better for anyone except for Epic.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#173

Post by Sargos » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

willvarfar wrote: post #32

I'm divided. As a programmer, I'm as happy as a pig in mud in the low-level innards of my computers and operating systems, and like that I can get at them etc. That's why I have linux on my desktop. But 'open' systems don't work out well for 'normal' users. Remember the viruses and trojans and instability and all the rest of the Windows days, or Android? I want my parents and friends and everyone else to use an iphon…

>Remember the viruses and trojans and instability and all the rest of the Windows days, or Android?

The era you are referencing was two decades ago and those problems stemmed from development processes that didn't take security into consideration since it was mostly written in pre-internet days and worked well in that environment. Once Microsoft took security seriously things got better. Windows is -still- an open platform where you can run anything you want and you don't see rampant viruses/trojans etc. It works very well now and still has the same openness properties as before.

Android has security issues just like Apple but it's never been a huge problem. The fact that you put Android in that sentence makes me scratch my head a bit. Android is on the same level as iOS on pretty much every metric.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#174

Post by gwd » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:09 PM UTC

pwinnski wrote: post #105

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

I have definitely come around on this. I can see a case for making adding a third-party story cumbersome, and having Apple still control the "certificates," let's say, for each store, but yes, I agree, there need to be alternatives. It still seems awkward to say that Apple must allow for competitors, but they're a $2 trillion company now, and I think rules are just weird for companies of that size.

> It still seems awkward to say that Apple must allow for competitors, but they're a $2 trillion company now, and I think rules are just weird for companies of that size.

Apple only controls 14% of the smartphone market. If Apple is a $2T company, doesn't that mean those 14% of people overall approve of what Apple is doing?

I certainly think some of the restrictions are onerous; but if I had to choose between "Some onerous restrictions on some app developers" and "No way to capture value from applications to support the platform", I'd go with the first one.

Right now, if you don't like what Apple's doing, you can choose not to do with Apple; and if I do, I can choose to go with them. If you get your way & Apple is forced to open up, I'll no longer have that choice.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#175

Post by kevincox » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:12 PM UTC

fjdjsmsm wrote: post #154

dkersten wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for…

The problem with this argument is the existence of Android. The app ecosystem on Android is not appreciably better than iOS. Opening iOS to third party app store will likely just increase copyright infringement, leading to fewer paid apps.

I think it is. I have the best of both worlds. Most of the time I download apps from a store that is roughly as safe as the Apple store. (Maybe not quite as high, but I don't think that this changes the argument). However if there is some software that Google doesn't like I can install it myself. Or I can run a patch that some developer posted on GitHub and test it before it has been merged and published.

It shows that there is some convenience from a "single" app store, such that people won't flood away and lead to a race to the bottom in quality. But it also shows that you can maintain that experience while allowing users to install whatever they want.

So Apple is claiming that allowing people to install whatever they want, or having multiple App Stores will lead to crumbling of the convenient and secure ecosystem that they have created. However Android has shown that this is not the case.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#176

Post by LamaOfRuin » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:15 PM UTC

simonh wrote: post #128

ardy42 wrote: post #124

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> The problem with this is that it would be putting an obligation on Apple to design and implement APIs it doesn't want to create or support, and implement features it disagrees with. That's not a problem, it's just life. Pretty much every person and organization has obligations they need to comply with that they may disagree with. For instance, COPPA means Apple (and other internet companies) already need to impleme…

So now the US government and the EU will be making legislation that specifies phone APIs and designs user interfaces. Great! Not going to happen. Apple will simple close up the App Store into a private premium feature delivery system. Meanwhile the entire rest of the industry will be stuck with a new version of WAP. Thanks guys.

Like they closed up shop and abandoned China as a market?

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#177

Post by zacwest » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

panzagl wrote: post #166

The most important changes Apple needs to make would not cost them a single line of code- they just get rid of their policy to require consistent pricing across all platforms, and allow promotion/linking of external (i.e. not on iOS) payment sources. If Spotify could charge +30% for a subscription purchased through the App store, and include a link to their main sign up page where subscriptions are regular price, eve…

The consistent pricing requirement was removed years ago. This is an article from 2011 about it: https://appleinsider.com/articles/11/06/09/apple_backs_down_...

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#178

Post by sreekotay » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:16 PM UTC

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #148

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

I don't see how 3rd party stores can possibly work in a system that relies on rigid permissions. HN fetishises root access as if it's some kind of magic panacea, but in reality most users don't care about root access at all - they want apps that work, they have zero interest in tinkering with software for its own sake, and root access will not make apps more reliable or more secure. The main problems with the App Sto…

Maybe think of it differently: what if there were third party app stores that had the same TECHNICAL requirements, but not the same business/policy requirements.

Feels like this is (should be?) as much about USER freedom and choice as it is about DEVELOPERS. While cost precipitated the current set of issues, it's really about the role Apple plays in arbitrarily mediating between customer and service.

So basically, you would strike: log-in, payment, content, etc, but keep the other stuff. Doesn't solve all problems but would be incrementally better.

Each "app store" would have it's own ability to set those policies for apps it carries - but (crucially) users would have the OPTION.

For users that don't care - stick with Apple.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#179

Post by kevincox » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:18 PM UTC

bluesign wrote: post #40

supermatt wrote: post #13

I am of the opinion that the only fair option is to allow 3rd party stores with the same permissions as the official app store. Apples curation isn't (as they suggest) preventing malware, theft of information, etc - this if verifiably false given recent history with apps like tiktok stealing clipboard content. The ability to change content of payment screens post-approval (as epic have just done) also means that cura…

Having 3rd party stores will be net negative for me as a user. Currently I have trust to Apple, if I am or my kid charged wrong or tricked into some subscription etc, I have proof with experience that Apple will fix it. Now let’s say if we have many stores, some stores will try to be smart, will make exclusive deals, force people to install their stores to maybe play a one popular game. As a user I will end up with 1…

I don't think it will. Android and the Play Store have shown that even with the ability to install arbitrary apps and stores very few apps that would have been available on the Play Store have migrated to only be available on other stores.

So the tradeoff is a fairly large number of previously disallowed apps are now available, if you want. And a small number of previously allowed apps are only available outside of Apple's store.

Of course if this is worth it to you depends on how much you value either side of the equation but at least in the Android case it is a clear win to me.

Re: Rethinking the App Store

#180

Post by gknoy » Wed, Aug 26, 2020, 5:20 PM UTC

nemothekid wrote: post #172

dkersten wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with this. The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. The App Store as it stands has completely stagnated to the point where it’s useless to me outside of actually downloading or buying an app. It’s been years since I’ve been able to discover new apps though it, now relying for…

> The only winners in the current situation are Apple. By opening it up to competitor app stores, yes competitors would benefit, but so would developers and so would their users. It's hard for me to reconcile this, and I keep seeing that 3rd party app stores would be better for users, but it all seems very handwavy. You would think this would be an easy point to prove as Android has had alternative app stores for yea…

Humble Bundle has an android app that lets you download APKs, and then prompts you to install them. I've used that to install several android games in the past, even for things that are available in different versions on the Play store. It's never showed me pop-up ads, and it's only for installing things that I've already bought via their website.

It's not a large store, I expect, and I don't often use it install things, but it seems to be an unambiguous example of something that benefits users. I bought things via Humble, and then am able to install them on any android device I ever have (in theory).

If they were to add the ability to actually buy things in the app, it would effectively turn into something with an interface like the Kindle app (which shows me both my library of books, as well as a shopping interface).